Sub Seconds Dial

I am looking for a sub seconds dial for the wandering seconds President dial and I have radium hands to trade. Any one who knows where I might find one of the little dials that goes under the regular dial for the wandering seconds President dial please contact me by PM and I will be happy to work with you.

JP

plainsmen
Posted June 3, 2012 - 1:11pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Been looking for one for a year... you won't find one. 

But a good watchmaker (MIKE @ timemachines) said he can make one.  I called international dial and the said that's what I'd have to do.  Those little round dials are just to few.

What the watchmaker will do is cut the disc to the right size.  Take a regular seconds hand... lop off the top and weld it to the new dial.  Then the new dial gets sent to the dial painting shop for the correct color and numbers.  Wallah!

It was all explained to me last year when I was rooting around for one.

JP
Posted June 3, 2012 - 1:17pm

Panel Member

Holy crap !! That is unbelievable. I did not think they would be that rare. Thanks for the heads up and if I have to go that route I will probably have a few made up so I can help those of us who need them. I would think it would be cheaper to have several made at one time.

John

plainsmen
Posted June 3, 2012 - 1:19pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Yeah lemme know if you decide to do it... I'll pitch in.  Dunno what it would cost.

JP
Posted June 3, 2012 - 1:23pm

Panel Member

OK will do.

Timemachines
Posted June 3, 2012 - 2:25pm

Hi Guy's, and Gal's.

 Yes, I'm sure that I can do it, I happen to have a extra dial for a referance and it appears that it is about a 6mm disk and it will have to be a two part disk.

 First I would have to start out with a small hole in a thin disk do I could get a center and turn the disk to trim out the outside down to approx. 6mm, then I would have to make a small brass center that could be used as a rivit to attach the center of the disk, then drill out the center the same size as the second bit on the movement. then you could have it printed.

 I'm not sure what movement they used off the top of my head, but it wiuld be imparitive, to know the exact size of the seconds bit, so it dont slip.

I'm trying to get caught up on some of my repairs as I have just moved and I got way behind, but I will try to find some time to see how long it takes me to produce one of these parts for you.

 I'll try to keep the cost down, but it sounds like it might suck up a bit of time.

  Mike..........

  

Timemachines
Posted June 3, 2012 - 2:27pm

Did Bulova use the same movements in all of the wondering seconds?

  

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted June 3, 2012 - 3:34pm

Mike,

I'll stick My neck out on this one.

The only early Bulova We see the wandering seconds Dial on is the 1934 'PRESIDENT's - which have the 21 Jewel 10 AN Movement.

 

hold that thought. - there's the 'JUMP HOUR' from the same era which had completely slipped My mind, I've no idea what's inside off top of My Head.

Perhaps someone will chime in with that information..

plainsmen
Posted June 3, 2012 - 3:46pm

Club 5000Panel Member

The Jump hour used a 13AT if I'm not mistaken.. pretty rare model.

I believe I have a 10AN for one of my Presidents and hrmm... I'll have to look.. but I know I have 2 and they are different movements.

plainsmen
Posted June 3, 2012 - 4:02pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Wait wait... nevermind!  I don't need a subseconds dial for the President... I need one for my Jump Hour!  Der... sorry!

Take me off the list!

DreamWeaver
Posted June 3, 2012 - 6:37pm

It might make the most since (and maybe this is already the thinking) to have the right size diameter and thickness discs with the appropriate size hole centered to friction-fit the pinion made as blanks...and then they could be refinished at IDC by individuals who buy them. That would be awesome! I always thought there were some 21 Jewel 10AE Wandering President models? Would the sub-second pinion for the disc-friction-fit be the same for both 10AN and 10AE? 

Timemachines
Posted June 3, 2012 - 8:30pm

Well, that would make sence to most, but it realality it dont work that way.  I have been doing this along time and all sub dials that I have worked on all had a stud rivited into the center of the dial so it would have more mass to grab the seconds bit. ( watchmakers will pull this dial off and back on many times in the lifetime of the watch and it has to reseat every time)  If you made the dial out of one peice, you would have to make a die to punch it out to the 6mm od, and then drill the hole to the same size as the bit, BUT! The dial thickness of only .25mm or so will not give you enough support to reliably spin and not wobble out the whole and start slipping. This is why it would be better to make it a two peice, and I can spin the small disk in my lathe by the center to cut the outside giving it a nice outside diameter, finish and asure true center, then make the center rivit, about .50mm and get twice the grip on the bit and it will last forever that way.

 Thats probably why they normaly make them in two peices to start with. I have never seen one in only one peice. (not to say it does'nt excist)

 Mike......

Timemachines
Posted June 3, 2012 - 8:57pm

Jp!,

 Can you tell me if the movement has been cut out or machined spacifictly for the disk type seconds? 

 My reason for asking is the dial I have here has been cut out half the thickness of the dial on the backside of the dial and I wanted to make sure bulova didnt also machine the movement out in this area.  It would allow for a thicker sub dial that may be easier to work with.

 Mike.

DreamWeaver
Posted June 3, 2012 - 10:42pm

Mike, that's quite a sophisticated answer and response! Thanks! It's a very interesting process. I spoke one time a while back with Rob at IDC and he said to cut a disc, remove a second hand tube and use it by putting it in the center of the sub-dial, and he would print it. He made it sound way too easy...but your approach sounds much better and more sound. I have seen the top dials and I can confirm they are sunk half the thickness of the sub-dial...but I've never seen the 21J 10AN movement (rare!) to know if it is sunken for the sub-disc too. I'm anxious to hear how this engineering challange goes forward! DW

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted June 4, 2012 - 8:34am

although not a Bulova, this set up would seem to be the same (?) as on the 'JUMP HOUR'.

The Minutes Dial seems recessed to accept the Seconds Dial, attachment is unclear to Me.

I own the 1934 'PREZ' but have never had the Dial off so I can't comment.

 

 

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted June 4, 2012 - 12:39pm

Club 5000Panel Member

and my 13AT version - apparently all FHF Swiss and not a eubauch....I can get measurements of the two dials. Don't know how the pinion measurements differ btwn the 13AT and 10AN, but another bridge complication would be necessary to make them "work".  It's gonna be several days before I can get measurements, but I can get them if there's interest.

Timemachines
Posted June 4, 2012 - 6:43pm

Ok, I sat down and made a sub dial for the 34 Pres. and it will fit the 10an and the 10ae movement.

 If this is the one you need JP, send me a PM and give me your address and I'll send it to you and you can have it printed and we will see how it works out.

 By the way, it was a bitch to make :) I dont know how you people deal with all those tiny parts!  LOL

  Mike....

zappatore88
Posted October 29, 2012 - 11:20am

I been looking for a seconds dial for my 1932 jumphour . By any chance did you make 2 ?

 

JP
Posted December 20, 2012 - 2:39pm

Panel Member

Thanks Mike.

John