My understanding is that before Bulova went mainstream in the watch industry they first teamed with an long time existing Swiss watch manufacture called Favre Watch Co.
If that is correct then this is probably one of their ealier movements and watches. Front dial is labelled 'Lady Maxim'. I've just finished striping and polishing the movement.
Note the engraved/stamped symbol on the main bridge. Also note the lack of serial number and model number. 1923 movments had both a serial and model number so this movement probably pre-dates that.
Anyone have any thoughts?
The Favre watch co, was a predicessor to Favre-Leuba watch co, and I think I remember seeing that they went through alot of changes back aroung the earlie 30's.
I have a hunch that Bulova made some movements for the Favre watch co around this time. Just a hunch tho. Mike..
Yes, That would be correct.
I did a little surfing of the net for "Favre watch co." and many things come up. They were in buisness since the 1700's and I see that they used alot of ebeuche movements. for those who dont know what a ebeuche movement is . It is a blank movement prduced by a watch movement company that only has two plates, top and bottom complete with all the gears , balance, escape wheel ect. and they would sell to many, many manufactures, like Bulova, elgin, ect. Then the manufacture would tear down the complete ebeuche movement and cut it into bridges, stamp the plates, jewel them, polish them and put their own names on them and then install them into their watches.
This brought the prices of watches down so each manufacture diid not have to invest in makeing gears, arbours, pallets, escape wheels , ect as the base movement were already made for them.
so the next time you see that little word ebeuche stamped on the movement, you will know that the manufacture bought a blank movement and cut it up , and put their name on it.
Since Favre was one of those companies that used a ebeuche movements, it would not suprize me that they bought some movements from Bulova to put in their own watches, although I could not find any assoceation with bulova and favre watch co. together.
Maybe someone can find out for sure. Mike..
In reply to Here's mine! by timerestoration
In reply to Nice, a twin...any idea what by mybulova_admin
In reply to If you could flip the by Timemachines
Thanks, From the pic, I cant see the trade marks, but the set bridge in the id catalog id's this as a 9 3/4 ling Font 1144 movement.
This would mean that the baseline ebeuche movement was indeed made by Font, not bulova or favre. Then it was sold to either Favre or Bulova who cut it up, jeweled it, printed ect. Basicly finished the movement.
My guess is that Favre bought the movement from Font, finished it and sold it to Bulova for a spacific application.
If you look closely at the movement, you should see a trade mark of a letter F that is mirroed, Like two F's back to back with a rosette around it. If you see this mark, then I think we are on the right track.
Hope this helps. Mike..
In reply to Thanks, From the pic, I cant by Timemachines
Well, I guess that I need a pic of the Favre movement, Now we know who made the other one and the caliber if it indeeds measures 9 3/4 ligne. The word brevet and the cross symbol is swiss like pantent pend.
I thought we were talking about the Favre movement? lol Mike.
In reply to Well, I guess that I need a by Timemachines
Yes I do! , This movement is a Gruen 137 model! Same base as the 126 caliber Suprize!
This movement must have been made after 1930's as before then Gruen and Rolex movements were made by the Aegler company , They also made them for many others such as Bulova, ect.
Now I would say that this is one of the first Gruen made movements, that was sold to favre, who did the finish work upon the request for a spacific Bulova application.
Wow, what a twist. Now, how close am I ? Mike..
Not really, This acually makes things a little bit more solid, Other then the codes. Breaking codes on watches are like any other code you will find in life. But it's not unbreakable.
Both of these watches were made by Gruen, and they are both 126 caliber, so if you need any parts for them, that what you would look for.
The letters, and numbers could be the factory # , department #, run #, inspector #, or even a model #.
Since at the time these were made, they were made probably in the same place, because in the earlie 30's they probably did'nt have the funds to set up more then one location for the same movement.
It dont take much to change the moldel # of a movement , lets say watch that has a 9 3/4 ligne movement that look alike will have a model # of xxx4, and by adding even one jewel, it is now xxx9, ect. that why bulova has so many watch movement that look the same, but the caliber is differant. Jewel count, manspring length, sweep second or no, second bit location, ect. All these things can change the caliber #, and yet alot of the parts are inter changeable.
From knowing what we know, about this one, I think the letters represent the run # 6 (6=F) of a spacific count, and the 474 may have been a serial # of this low production movement, and the above watch of timerestorations would run # 7 with a serial # if 137. This would explain why there is no serial numbers on the back plate of the watch movement, like we normally see
I know it sounds a bit crazy, but you need to remember this is earlie 1930, and for what ever reason Favre bought several movements from Greun , for a spacific Bulova application, and the serial numbers or run numbers would have been very low. The numbers and letters is still a mystory, but I dont think I'm off by far.
tell me what you guy's think. Mike..
In reply to Not really, This acually by Timemachines
In reply to Some very bold assumptions by FifthAvenueRes…
Ok, Let me explain. Timerestoration and I have something that you dont, or maybe you do but dont know what it is.
We both have "Fingerprint catalogs" These are books made for watchmakers that show the top plate of the watch for almost all modern watches . These finger print or sometime called foot prints books show us what design the setting parts are and most of all the set bridge design. These are spacific to each and every model . It is designed for a watchmaker to id a movement even if it dont have a single mark on it at all, and it is not my statement, or assumptions, it is fact, it means that I can read is all.
If you recall in a earlier post above , he asked me if I see what he did? and I replied yes. Well he looked and seen that this movement was made by Gruen and so did I. I'm sure neither one of us thought that this movement was ever going to be made by Gruen, maybe Font, Felsa, Eta, ect.
and as for "Ebauche and Font" being universal acrossed the board, is wrong, ( not to sound cras) but, Ebause pronounced (E-Boush) is a base line movement complete acrossd the board.
Font, Eta, Felsa, Ect were manufactures of ebauche movements, and Eta parts will not fit on font parts ect.
I think we were both shocked, and now "You know the rest of the story"
I hope this helps.
I figured these watches were from the early 1920s, not the the early 1930s. Am I incorrect in this belief?
If it's not a watch Bulova sold, but was actually sold by Favre in the early 30s then it makes sense as it doesn't have any of the standard 1930s Bulova movement stamps.
Also if it's a watch sold by Bulova in the early days (1919/20s for example) then it also makes sense.
However, if your saying it's a Bulova watch sold in the early 30s then that doesn't make sense to me, as they were well established by then...or am I missing something.
I gather the 'Fingerprint catalogue' you refer to has an image of this movement which was how you identified it as a Guren movement. I stupidly thought the 'G' stamp on the dial plate meant Guren? :-)
Apologies, but I'm still somewhat confused as to who sold the watch as we now have 3 watch companies involved....Bulova, Favre and Guren....
Well, That is the twist that I was talking about. the finger print guide is quite spacific as each watch only has one setting oreration and they are all unique to each caliber of watch. and it say's that this is a 9 3/4 ligne Gruen 126 model.
Now as for Bulova being established, Yes it was established before 1930, BUT was Bulova making their own movements then? I dont think so, I think they were still buying ebauce movements at this time, and Gruen to my knowlage Did not make their owen movements until after 1930, Gruen movements were made buy aegler company. Aegler made ebauche movements for alot of differant companies at this time, But I'm sure that the print guide would have listed it as a aegler base and not a Gruen. This is why I think it was made after 1930, when Gruen would have been making their own watch movements at this time.
I also have no idea why Bulova would have wanted to buy movements from Farvre, as I cant find anything on Bulova and Farvre ever being together. But it's staring me in the face, so they must have.
The stampings, could have been placed there from any one of the companies, Maybe the "F" was for Farvre? Maybe the "G" is for Gruen? This is the part that I dont know about these movements. I guess it is possable the the Farvre could have given the baseline movement the 137 number as a model #, then maybe Gruen changed it later, again, I simply dont know about the stamping.
I know if I needed any part for these movements, I would have to look for a aegler movement, or possably a Gruen 126. This would give me the correct part for the watch.
I think we will need to find out exactly when greun made their own movements, as it might be possable even tho Gruen was buying some ebauche movements from aegler at this time, maybe they were gearing up to make there own a bit earlier and selling off a few models as ebauche movements them selves?
I guess this is still a mystory. I cant pinpoint when this movement was made, other then knowing that gruen didnt make their own movements until after 1930.
I have another book called watchmakers trade marks, and I'll try to find the book and see if it have any information of when these companies made their own movements, and maybe clear some of this up. Mike..
My understanding, and it's only from what I've read over the years on various forums, is that Bulova had a factory in Switzerland in the 1920s and were producing either the parts (which were then shipped back to the US for assembly) or the entire movement (which was then shipped to the states for dials, hands and casing).
Someoneelse may be able to confirm this or if its not the case advise otherwise. I'm happy to learn!
I do know that as of 1935 they started stamping the movements (mens only I think) USA rather than SWISS indicating that the movements were made and assembled in the US.
What still gets me is that I'm sure these watches are from the early 20s. Here's a picture of the dial.
It still has that old pocket watch style of dial design.
Hello,
I did some more reading and found that Greun made the first ladies wrist watch, and in 1922 Gruen built it first presision factory in Switzerland, So I think that it is entirely possible that gruen was making ebauche movement from this factory, sending them over here and some how, maybe Favre, bought some of them and finished them , and at some time Bulova got involved.
I now think that this movement is from the mid to late 20's. That would explain alot.
Maybe Timerestorations can give his point of view. Mike..
Here is a Bulova Precision on the site
Aegler, the company jointly owned by Aegler, Gruen and Rolex, sold movts to other companies, including Bulova. I have no evidence of a Gruen 137, but this does look like an Aegler to me. Bulova was not making their own movts at this time and mid twenties is probably correct for the manufacture date. Gruen was bought out or sold out of Aegler in 1935, if memory serves. Rolex then aquired controlling interest, as they do with many companies that have supplied them.
Bulova directly purchased the Gruen 120 ebauche, which is different from the 126. The original post movt and timeresto's are indeed 126's. Marc Favre used the movt as their own calibre 126. Bulova used many ebauches, as well as in later years, made their own complete watches. They sourced this one through Favre, which is why it doesn't show in the list of Bulova purchased ebauches, as it didn't come directly from Gruen. (Aegler)