Military Issue or Military Style??

Submitted by OldTicker on March 1, 2011 - 9:12pm

I am confused on these old Black dial watches, I am thinking this is a Military style, but no sub-seconds dial, it has a sweep seconds hand (Missing), The case back is a pop-off style marked Bulova 10K RGP Sterling base, Stainless back on the inside and only a serial nimber on the outside, no Ordnance markings. The movement is a 10BA with the circle dating it to 1944. It is a small watch, with a 21.8mm crystal, 26mm bezel and 32mm lug to lug. 13.19mm between lugs. (Ladies?)  The case and back are in very good condition, the crystal is scratch free.

It has radium  filled hands and radium or what is left of it on the numbers. Other than needing the luminous redone and the hands replated, the dial looks to be in good shape. It seems to keep good time but if I was to re-do it I would have it serviced at the same time.

I bet finding a Red sweep hand will be tough as I have nothing here that will fit it. Is it a Military Issue or Military Style and is it worth fixing up??

Sorry for the poor picture, I didn't have time to set my light tent up.

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 1, 2011 - 9:58pm

Greg

10BCC seconds hand will work.

Ive been wanting to name similar Watches the 'SEABEE' or 'WATER-TITE'  http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1949-military-style-1626

'Military Style' is what was decided on although there are a lot of 'Military style' watches already named in the database, 'BLACKOUT',  'BLACKHAWK',  'NIGHTHAWK' and so on, etc, so ??

 

 

vintagebulova.com
Posted March 1, 2011 - 10:00pm

Not military issue.   Would someone please come up with a definition what "military style" means.  From where I sit it's either military or it's not. 

Jay

vintagebulova.com

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 1, 2011 - 10:11pm

I agree 100% Jay.

'Military style' is too broad of a term to categorize into, it's either Military or it's not, if it's not Military then it's an unknown until a Name is found or agreed upon.

'Millitary style' confuses an already confusing issue.

OldTicker
Posted March 1, 2011 - 10:59pm

I agree with both of you, it is very confusing. Is it safe to say that to be considered "Military Issue" it should be stamped with ordnance markings on the caseback?? or have the hack feature?

This watch seems to small to be a men's watch, and to big to be considered a ladies watch at the time, maybe a youth watch?

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 1, 2011 - 11:20pm

'Military issue' is just that, a Watch issued to Troops:  ORD, A-11, A-17A, 10BNCH etc. Casebacks are hexagonal, screw on and are stamped similar to below.

'Military style' could be an Excellency on a drab green strap? a judgement call.

shooter144
Posted March 1, 2011 - 11:29pm

I think you guys have just lumped too much into the military style category. I f its a simple large numbered ROUND face lumed nums and hands  center secs 12/24 hr dial mechanical nickel or chrome case NOT marked with ord marks then consider it a Military style, as nearly all issue watches have these features. Since the Issue watches have become so popular, every round dial un named  watch online as of late is being called a 'Military style' when its obviously not. This watch is a Military style watch SeaBee  or not. We just have to not lump all of the obviously not military  watches in this category just because it makes it a cool watch. Any Tanq if it is NOT marked should NOT be called a Military style IMHO, even if Bulova calles it military style, has anyone seen a non round ord marked watch? Ever? Issue watches are as rugged, simple and easy to use as possible and ROUND...I have never seen a Tank style ISSUE watch....I may be wrong but for the most part all are as Ive described. Now of course we have the issue chronos and such as well but this isnt what were talking about. Look at this watch, Look at a marked issue watch...Its not that difficult to to put a watch into this category.

As far as issue, most but not all issue watches were marked. No real way to confirm an unmarked watch was issued without a serial num check against shipping or issue docs. I have been issued  a watch in a box with a NSN from supply that was not marked. Out of maybe 6 issued to me 1 was not marked. I am sure In WWII some if not many were not marked.

I know Ill catch some flak about the Bulova  Military style watches in the dat base (Blackout, Blackhawk etc), but those  are sort of named already. We are talking about what Ive described above, not the Blackhawks and such.

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 1, 2011 - 11:44pm

Shooter,

Thank You for the clarification Sir.

 ??

 

shooter144
Posted March 1, 2011 - 11:49pm

K I S S .......Keep It Simple Stupid,  I have to live by that acronym lol

shooter144
Posted March 1, 2011 - 11:53pm

And Old ticker, If you decide not to fix it up, let me know ill make you a few bucks on it, I love it !!!

OldTicker
Posted March 2, 2011 - 12:34am

In reply to by shooter144

Chris,

I will take some better pictures of it Sunday when I set up my light tent and send them to you.

Take a look at the picts and make an offer...you never know!

OldTicker
Posted March 2, 2011 - 12:06am

I would guess that Bulova marketing used the war to there advantage by styling watches to look like those they were selling to the Military at cost + minimum profit... when soldiers came home on leave, they probably were wearing there black dial luminus hands watches and everybody soon wanted one so Bulova provided.

I don't think this is a "SeaBee" or a "Watertite", because I see no sign of anything to prevent it from drowning! and it is smaller that the "Military style" that are listed in the database. Sooner or later someone will find a ad at a flea market or estate auction to ID it.

It can set in the "maybe" drawer for awhile, I think it might be a youth watch from the early 40's, anybody here old enough to remember what magazines were popular with kids in the 40's??

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 2, 2011 - 5:14am

'I would guess that Bulova marketing used the war to there advantage by styling watches to look like those they were selling to the Military at cost + minimum profit... when soldiers came home on leave, they probably were wearing there black dial luminus hands watches and everybody soon wanted one so Bulova provided.'

Bingo Greg!

....and the 'look-a-like' styles marketed to the Civilian masses during this time period will all have Model names, somewhere.

Once the unknowns are entered into the site database under a Generic 'Military Style' listing who is going to bother going back and correct if and when a true Name is discovered?

....and may I add where is the incentive to find a Name if the Watch can simply be dumped into a 'Military style' classification without debate?

Sorry, but it makes no sense.

IMO

WatchCrystals.net
Posted March 2, 2011 - 6:49am

Good points, all !

 

And the only "military issue" watch I've seen... that wasn't ROUND," was this (recased) Hamilton Drs. watch... that was strapped to 500 pound Bombs, in WWII : (aka: the "Seckron!")

 

 

:-) Scott

vintagebulova.com
Posted March 2, 2011 - 7:35am

Here's a scan of the official WWII A-11 military specs. Don't know if you can read it but not only is it very clear on the size of the watch it specifies a screw on back.  Kinda lends itself to a round case.

Jay
vintagebulova.com

 

shooter144
Posted March 2, 2011 - 11:36am

I guess my point was along the lines of classifying the unknowns into a class as military-ish, as they have not been identified they still fit into a class just like all of the rest of the unidentified ones. They are fairly specific compared to most of the others and it would simplify the process some if theses were in an unidentified 'class' of their own .It would be much easier for me to compare my round face military ish watch to maybe 10 or so others like it than 100 tanq styles with a few military style mixed in.

I just met, this morning, a watchmaker, Seiko trained in Japan in 1942,and again in 1966 and 1988, still working ,who may have some insight into theses older watches. He was part of the Post WWII rebuilding group that went to Japan to get industry rolling again. He drives a vintage Rolls Royce lol very cool old timer I must say !! I am attempting to get in touch with the owners of a verry old local jewelry/ watch store that recently closed as well to see if they have any thing that could help us( business opened in the 40s) . I hope they have some old ads or catelogs or something, no chance for any stock, the kids raped the place when the old man passed.

Old Ticker, When you get a chance (no rush) I'll take a look and hopefully we can do a deal !!

Wayne Hanley
Posted March 2, 2011 - 12:35pm

Military issue watches are very popular and folks are paying high prices for them. Hence, we should authentic issue watches so that folks can tell the difference. A lot of sellers are touting round military style watches as the real  thing, calling them military as a deception to gain the higher prices. It is to the benefit of the owners of authentic military issue watches. Military style watches have names and eventually those names will be found. We should authenticate military issue watches as they are added. Many issue watches are mix & match with wrong movements in issue cases etc.

Wayne

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 2, 2011 - 2:20pm

'Many issue watches are mix & match with wrong movements in issue cases etc'.

As are  the 'Military Style' watches You have defined Wayne, a vast majority being 'Home made' Military wannabees.

It was Your idea for the 'Military style' category was it not, because an actual Model Name for a Watch You own could not be agreed upon?

A group for 'Military style' doesn't make sense for the very reason You mentioned above, anyone can throw a Military looking Dial ( or redial come to think of it )  into a Case and call it a 'Military style' Watch,  'Military style'  IMO, and in a lot of other members opinions obviously simply doesn't exist. They are 'unknowns' at this time or they are Frankenbullys.

'Military-ish' makes as much sense Shooter, a point well taken. Thank You for that one.

A Military issueWatch however can be easily authenticated by readily available Documentation, down to a part number of a screw if necessary

Wayne Hanley
Posted March 2, 2011 - 2:50pm

It was my idea & my opinion.  My watch was just an example that i didn't want in the Military category, because it would polute it. I have kept my watch in the box for 3 years and never mentioned it before.  You insisted it was a SeaBee & then insisted it was a watertite. It's not a match for either. My intentions was to keep the issue watches in their earned category and not to mix them with Military style watches.

Have you been appointed resident expert on all things Bulova? If not I'm entitled to my opinions. 

Wayne

 

shooter144
Posted March 2, 2011 - 5:25pm

I personally dont see any differance between Military style or military ish as a description. Military style means exactly that, a style, not issue. If its issue, it would be called Issue, and easily documented. Maybe as far as naming them its as simple as the ord description, A-11 etc, as described on the marked case back. Its unlikely that they would have any other name, except possibly in house at Bulova by contract number or something.In my mind, I can only see a Bulova employee saying something like " Are those A-11's ready to ship?" or something similar like "Is that 'whatever number' contract order done yet?"

I am sure that many non ord marked watches were sold with exact mil spec everything except the ord markings and maybe those are named somewhere, but then again, they may have destroyed them all after the war, as many companies did, to keep them from flooding the market and dropping sales and prices.

It seems like this has been over complicated, probably because all of the other Bulova's are a little complicated to name.

So 2 categories, Military issue and Military style seems easy enough as a general grouping of these ?????

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted March 2, 2011 - 8:45pm

Shooter

I like 'Military-ish', a lot , why not?

'Military-ish style' Watches are Unknowns or Frankies. There is no Grey area.

IMO

Here is a World War II (?) anti Aircraft Gunner wearing a rectangular shaped Watch. The now famous Cartier 'Tank' was named after such a style.

image courtesy of olivedrab.com

 

If someone places a 'Military-ish style' Watch that is questionable in its Miltaryishness into the category how are You going to confirm or debunk the Miltaryism aspesct?  You can't, it's far too Grey.

mybulova_admin
Posted March 2, 2011 - 8:49pm

After considering this some, I've now decided to remove the 'Military Style' category from the model list.

This doesn't accurately ID a watch model and confusses the issue.

We need to properly ID a watch based on its correct model name and not its styling. So please identify any unknown military - non ordinance issue as an 'Unknown' until such time that we can correctly identify it.

Thanks!!!

scotty
Posted March 5, 2011 - 1:51pm

i have the same watch with a white face they look almost identical.does anyone know much about them other than the military confusion. i was wanting to know year there are no markings just a serial # on the inside of the case the outside is smooth not a single marking

 

shooter144
Posted March 5, 2011 - 2:29pm

The movement will be dated, use the drop down menu , INFORMATION then BULOVA DATE CODES, the movement will have a symbol ( Omega, *, T,  O etc) that will date the movement and thus the watch ( to a year or two for the watch)