CHIEF, CLINTON, COMPTROLLER, KNICKERBOCKER.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture

Gentlemen,

A Lady in Our midst has raised a very interesting issue that needs resolved.

Four models are listed:

CHIEF

CLINTON

COMPTROLLER

KNICKERBOCKER.

Currently within the database most have the same attributes but are named differently.

Where is the visual evidence (ads, preferably with written descriptions) identifying the named Watches?

Thank You Lisa, You're absolutely correct.

WatchCrystals.net's picture
WatchCrystals.net
Posted March 11, 2011 - 8:58am

SEE my timepiece posts... (And WHY can't one click on a member's ICON and see their watch posts?)

 However, WHERE is the "Comptroller??" (And the other 5 or 6 models, that take the same crystals???)

 

FYI: (The models that take the same crystals, are as follows:)

Chief, Clinton, Conrad, Comptroller, Director, Envoy, Knickerbocker, Officer, Pilot, Rockland  

 SEE Also: 

CHIEF:  http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1948-chief-720

CLINTON (1946)

KNICKERBOCKER (41)

ROCKLAND:  http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1942-rockland-730

 

BULOVA "CLINTON?" (45)

BULOVA CLINTON  (1947 AD)

1948 "CHIEF" (SEP AD 12/48)

12/48 SATURDAY EVENING POST AD:

 

:-)  Scott

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 11, 2011 - 3:02pm

Scott,

There's definately a Lug issue with the above photographed 'CLINTON'.

WatchCrystals.net's picture
WatchCrystals.net
Posted March 11, 2011 - 6:17pm

Hey Mark,

In what sense? That someone put a 1mm too wide band or strap on it, for some time... and bent the lugs outward? (I frankly thought those might have been "readjusted" before resale?) Or that the lugs appear to be more "rounded," vs. nearly "Nosler" style bullet (tip) points???

It seems then, that the 1945/6 version of this bullet lug case... is indeed the "Knick," so I presume the "Clinton" was then released either just before Christmas 1946? Or 1947?? (We'll likely need both movements to compare... and more ads, to refine the timeline much further... I'm afraid???)

Rockland = 1941/2/3 ?

Comptroller = 1943/5 ?

Knickerbocker = 1945/6 ?

Clinton = 1946/8 ?

Chief = 1948/9?

 

:-)  Scott 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 11, 2011 - 7:00pm

Scott,

Lugs are bent too perfectly as if they were manufactured that way and appear to have colored 'tips'...for lack of a better word.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 11, 2011 - 8:20am

Scott,

I'm assuming the other Models sharing the Crystal have been ID'd through a Case variant (?)

The Models named in the thread seem to share the same Case, the variant has to be Dial / Movement / Year related.

'COMPTROLLER' - 1943.

'CHIEF' appears to have Black Modern style Hands and Black printed numerals?

mybulova_admin
Posted March 11, 2011 - 8:43am

Club 5000Panel Member

1945 Knickerbocker (sorry about the low res)

1945 Bulova Knickerbocker

1945 Bulova Knickbocker

1946 Knickerbocker

1946 Bulova Knickerbocker

1948 Chief

1948 Bulova Chief

mybulova_admin
Posted March 11, 2011 - 8:54am

Club 5000Panel Member

So order would appear to be:

1943 - Comptoller

1945/46 - Knickbocker

1947 - Clinton

1948/49 - Chief

Any ads showing the Rockland?

WatchCrystals.net's picture
WatchCrystals.net
Posted March 11, 2011 - 9:05am

The Rockland is most likely the first release then, in this case? (i.e. 1941???)

It's now after 5:am Pacific... G' day!

:-)  Scott

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 11, 2011 - 6:34pm

'KNICKERBOCKER' - Superceeded by the 'COMPTROLLER' then replaced by / upgraded to the 'CLINTON' : Gilt Hands and Gilt numerals.

'CHIEF' : Black Hands and Black printed numerals.

...according to the images.

 

 

mybulova_admin
Posted March 11, 2011 - 6:45pm

Club 5000Panel Member

??? The Comptroller is listed in the 1943 ad, where as the Knickbocker is listed in the 45/46 ads. Thus  is stands to reason that the Knickerbocker superceeded the Comptroller.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 11, 2011 - 6:56pm

admin,

Yes, exactly.

For all intents and purposes the 'CHIEF' and the 'COMPTROLLER', then 'KNICKERBOCKER' and then 'CLINTON' are 2 different models.

'COMPTROLLER', then 'KNICKERBOCKER' and then the 'CLINTON' being one and the same, Year of production would denote which.

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted March 14, 2011 - 5:57am

admin, Scott and those playing from Home:

Here is a Second Case identical to the one shown in Williams first post.

*  Note the Colored lug embellishments on both and compared to the 'all plated' lugs.

This would be a Case variation (not the same) to/as the ads naming the 'CLINTON' 'KNICKERBOCKER' and 'CHIEF'.

IMO.

 

 

GVP
Posted June 12, 2012 - 7:26am

I dont believe they are embellishments, just reflections of the back ground they are taken on. I can do that with mine here on the same coloured background

NOVA
Posted June 12, 2012 - 7:45am

Agreed.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted June 12, 2012 - 9:06am

agreed, the Camera playing tricks.

It has also come to recent light that these Models are not all named differently based on their Year of production but are named differently based on the strap on which they were sold.

'KNICKERBOCKER' - Bracelet.

'COMPTROLLER' - Leather strap.

These 2 models are identical in all other aspects.

 

NOVA
Posted June 12, 2012 - 9:15am

No such thing has "come to light".  That is simply your opinion based on extremely limited information.

The ads we have show the watches as produced at different times.  That alone is a difference, so the watches are not "identical".

Moreover, you conveniently ignore the models in this series that are shown on exactly the same strap yet have different names.  Clearly, there was something more than the strap behind the various names.

JP
Posted June 12, 2012 - 10:44am

Panel Member

Notice the difference in the numerals on the two watches above, thickness of the numbers is distinct and not quite the same or is that camera playing tricks again?? The numbers on the watch to the right have a bold outline of black not seen on the other watch. There are numbers in the seconds register of the watch to the right but not the one on the left. Different hands on each watch.

 

JP

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted June 12, 2012 - 12:00pm

All of the Vintage advertisements for the 'KNICKERBOCKER' show and describe the Watch on a "Basket weave" bracelet.

The 'COMPTROLLER' of the same era is shown and described as being Sold on a Leather strap.

This is the only discernible difference.

If an ad is found showing and describing the 'COMPTROLLER' on a basket weave Bracelet please advise.

Thanks!

NOVA
Posted June 12, 2012 - 12:12pm

Your statements prove absolutely nothing, and it is blantantly false to say that the strap is the only discernable difference between the watches.  Based on the evidence currently at hand, the watches were not produced at the same time.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.  Without such evidence, our best guess at distinguishing these watches is the date of production, not your assumptions about the strap. 

And, again, you completely ignore the identical models with different names that are shown on the same strap.  That is a piece of information that, in my opinion, weighs heavily against your assumption that the strap distinguishes these models. 

Moreover, an absence of proof is not evidence of anything.

You can fill in the gaps in our understanding with thoughts, ideas, theories, hypotheses, assumptions--but when you fill in the gaps with assertions of fact based on nothing, you go too far.

One would think you'd be catching on to that by now, considering how many of your baseless assertions of fact have been proved wrong just this week, but apparently not.

NOVA
Posted June 12, 2012 - 8:20pm

Here are the actual facts we currently have about these watches.

These are the dates of the ads for each watch that shares this case (that we know of so far):

1943 - Comptroller

1945 - Knickerbocker

1946 - Knickerbocker

1947 - Clinton

1948 - Chief

1949 - Clinton

I have in my notes that there is also a 1949 ad for the Chief, but I do not now see that ad. 

The only two watches that appear to overlap in time--according to the ads we have now--are the Clinton and Chief.  They are both shown on the same strap.  In fact, the Knickerbocker, Clinton, and Chief are all on basketweave/seed straps.  The only one that is on a different strap is the Comptroller, which is separated from the others by the largest gap in time.

See above for pictures of the various models.

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted June 12, 2012 - 7:02pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Good summarization of the ads and watches.  The two 1945 Knickerbocker ads are a few fields up the post in admin's comments.  

441victor
Posted June 20, 2012 - 9:52pm

Here is some more evidence that will have to be taken into account. I have two 1948 models based on their movement markings. There are two different dials and two different movements.

Joel

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted June 24, 2012 - 10:50am

Joel,

Those two cases appear to be diff sizes as well....right side is somewhat shorter...lug tip to lug tip.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted June 24, 2012 - 12:03pm

I would agree, they do look to be different sizes unless the Camera is playing tricks.

I do note the Case on the left of the image shown has an arched Crystal, which when face down could cause an illusion.

The Movements differ, both Case serial numbers begin with 9, both signed.

Case dimensions would be stellar.

bobbee's picture
bobbee
Posted June 24, 2012 - 12:49pm

Well spotted, Hawkeye. top pic of cases side by side look the same size. Optical illusion.

441victor
Posted June 26, 2012 - 4:50pm

The crystal is placing the right case back closer to the lens causing the illusion. The bezels are actually interchangeable.    Joel

bobbee's picture
bobbee
Posted June 26, 2012 - 4:57pm

Thought as much.