Is it just me or is this the inspiration for the Bulova Berkshire.....check out the front of the locomotive.
It's the Berkshire locomotive - 1950 model
Could it be????
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I'm looking to find a connection between the actual name 'Berkshire' which Bulova themselves have ID'd the watch as and the design of the watch in question.
Is there any connection with the name 'Berkshire' to FLW? Lets look at the facts as we know them and work from there.
Bulova named this watch 'Berkshire' for a reason.
In reply to Bulova has ID'd this design by FifthAvenueRes…
Fact, these watches are from 1950.
There is Reading College and School of Arts and Design located in Berkshire UK.
Any association with FLW at this time is unknown but its Architecture is certainly FLW'ish.
NOVA,
There are MANY Bulova Watches of the same design which evolved namewise through the model Years, You know this.
The truth remains We cannot positively ID a Watch made in 1950 to a similar Watch made and named in 1955.
In reply to There is Reading College and by FifthAvenueRes…
Yes, of course, I do know that, but thanks for the late tutorial, O Keeper Of "The Truth".
The fact remains that when we have a case match, we routinely ID watches based on ads from years other than the year of the watch movement, even when there are slight differences between dials, etc. What you are suggesting invalidates those IDs.
Berkshire, England was the location of several Royal Air Force stations during WWII, including some that were decommissioned in 1950. More than one of those air fields was also used by US forces during WWII. "Air King" could have come naturally from that. In fact, there is a famous Rolex named "Air King", which is purported to have been created during WWII for the use, and in honor, of pilots.
Absent a Bulova official coming in and presenting corporate documentation verifying every ID we've made, the case is still technically open on a great many watches in the database. Current IDs should be open to reconsideration in the face of new information. That doesn't mean we don't have strong enough evidence to support this ID and justify moving on.
Lisa,
The Watch would remain an unknown to this Day if it weren't for this
http://www.mybulova.com/node/1291
An interesting investigation began some time ago and will continue, although as soon as a 'Name' was discovered the subject was dropped and forgotton by many... there is so much more to this design.
IMO.
In reply to Lisa, The Watch would remain by FifthAvenueRes…
Yeah, I read that post some time ago. I thought the FLW theory was interesting but completely unproved. At the time I read that post I was also reading a historical novel based on FLW's life, so that was kind of cool. FLW's influence was far reaching and has stood the test of time, so it is not surprising to find elements of his designs everywhere, in every medium. That doesn't mean, though, that he had any direct involvement, or that his design elements were consciously used or imitated.
The information Bob got directly from Bulova was completely solid, IMO. I believe this watch has been ID'd (subject to later review on the basis of new evidence).
In reply to And that is an opinion in by FifthAvenueRes…
We're all just expressing our opinions in these posts. We have very few known facts to discuss. But most of us are willing to go along with the general consensus of the group. Isn't that the purpose of the forum, rather than to have endless arguments that never reach a satisfactory conclusion regardless of the strength of the evidence?
I had the feeling from the begining that Mark and Scott didn't fully accept the id for this watch, which is perfectly fine with me. Please know that I never said this was positve idendentifaction. If you look at the original post I just stated this is the info I got from Bulova. I leave it up to my fellow members to accept or reject. I think there is enough evedence to id the watch for now. If you don't agree you can always change your watch back to unknown. I respect all your opinions.
I would pose one question:
Who, if not FLW would design the atrium at Bulova Headquaters in Queens which btw has the exact design elements as the Guggenheim Museum on Fifth Avenue.
There lies the answer to who designed the Watch - certainly not the 1950 Bulova design dept.
Here are two lists of works by FLW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Frank_Lloyd_Wright_works
http://www.savewright.org/index.php
The Bulova building is not listed. I'm working on finding out who designed the building.
A simple answer to your question, Fifth, is that it could have been designed by any admirer of FLW. I have little doubt that he was the most influential architect in American history--if not in the world.
And when we've answered that question, we still will have no link between the building and the watch.
In reply to Here are two lists of works by NOVA
Great discussion, but moving off track (excuse the pun) from my original post.
The watches we have in this database all date to 1950....not 1955.
With that date (1950) in mind I did some research on the the connection between Berkshire and the year 1950.
The result.....the 1950-1968 Berkshire locomotive which just so happens to have a very similar design on the front of the engine.
I'm looking to associate the 'original' name Berkshire with something tangable.
The Air King, black dial version may well be a later re-named model release.....thats perfectly acceptable, but my original post was around trying to find out what was the inspiration for Bulova to name this particular watch (and its design) the 'Berkshire'. it may be a stretch but at least its something.
Can anyone else come up with a connection to Berkshire and the design. Were any of FLWs works title Berkshire, did he design any buildings called the 'Berkshire'....anything????
In reply to Great discussion, but moving by mybulova_admin
In reply to Well, we did discuss a by NOVA
I read that and that's a great connection and certainly ties the two names together. Nice work!
But again....why Berkshire...it's such an odd name....what was it that made Bulova pick this name to call this watch 'Berkshire'?
The design of the bezel must have something to do with the name. Following the FLW story was great and seemed promising but it has always lacked the 'real' connection to the name Berkshire.
My...out on a limb...suggestion that it was actually named after a 1950 Locomotive maybe a stretch but there is no denying the resemblence of the front of the engine....or am I just seeing things....
Also was the Berkshire locomotive built in Berkshire, England, or was it an American engine?
In reply to admin, I would associate the by FifthAvenueRes…
hold that thought - a travel brochure entitled 'the Berkshires of Wisconsin are calling' lists the works of FLW in:
The Berkshires - Wisconsin.
http://www.steinerag.com/flw/Artifact%20Pages/Brochures.htm
So Yes, We can associate the word Berkshire with Frank Lloyd Wright.
In reply to hold that thought - a travel by FifthAvenueRes…
Berkshire locomotive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkshire_locomotive
..........Based initially from a New York Central Railroad...........
My theory connects:
- the name - Berkshire
- the design
- the time period - 1926 -1949 (year of manufacture, so they ran well into the 50s)
- the location - NYC
Again look at the front of the engine, modify the design to suit that of the number of hours on a watch and its all right there.
It's the circular lug design that is the match.
Just to throw another log on the fire, 'Berkshire', as used to describe a locomotive, is simply a description of the wheel arrangement, i.e. the number of leading, drive, and trailing wheels.
A 'Berkshire' is any steam locomotive with 2 leading wheels, 8 drive wheels, and 4 trailing wheels - a 2-8-4, in the Whyte designation.
That means the design or the smoke box door is not specific to 'Berkshire' locomotives - some have quite different designs.
In reply to Just to throw another log on by Elgin Doug
Have a look at this: http://www.american-rails.com/berkshire-locomotives.html
Not all of them looked exactrly the same, correct, but a 'major' common design was the front of the engine, which is the basis my entire theory.
It looks like they stopped making this type of Locomotive in 1949, so maybe it was Bulova's tribute to its years of service to the country.
Don't forget Bulova were heavily involved in the train industry, providing 'railway approved' time pieces and they have also had a long history with both airline and the railway for providing timing instruments to both.
The more I think about it and the more I look at the watch, it has to be the connection. It has that look of the front end of big 'old school' steam locomotive.
In reply to Have a look at this: by mybulova_admin
A couple points. First, the design of the smoke box door isn't specific to 2-8-4 Berkshires. You'll see the same design on 4-8-4 Northerns, 4-6-2 Pacifics, etc. As you say, it has the look of the front end of big 'old school' steam locomotives, but it's a generic look, not specific to Berkshires - which, as a freight locomotive, would attract little attention among the general public.
Also, why would a forward-looking company name something after a steam locomotive - a relatively obscure one, at that - in 1950, a time when steam locomotives were rapidly being replaced by diesels?
Also, my understanding is that Bulova didn't supply railway approved time pieces for another 14 years. At this point in time, the approved watches had to be 16 size, 21j or better, and AFAIK, Bulova didn't make anything like that. So, their association with railroads didn't come till the Accutron years.
In reply to A couple points. First, the by Elgin Doug
Ok scrap the bit about 'railway approved' watches, that came after with the Accutrons and I can't prove that Bulova did manufacture such a watch or pocket watch. However they were manufacturing various timepieces that were used on aircraft and possible trains.
It's just a theory to match the design with the name.
In reply to Yes, the architectural by FifthAvenueRes…
Okay, here you go--something tangible to connect the WWII theory to Berkshire and Air King. To recap the basis of that theory:
Berkshire, England was the location of several Royal Air Force stations during WWII, including some that were decommissioned in 1950. More than one of those air fields was also used by US forces during WWII. "Air King" could have come naturally from that. In fact, there is a famous Rolex named "Air King", which is purported to have been created during WWII for the use, and in honor, of pilots.
This is the cockpit of a B-29 from WWII.
Here's a little history on the B29 courtesy of Wikipedia:
The B-29 was one of the largest aircraft to see service during World War II. A very advanced bomber for this time period, it included features such as a pressurized cabin, an electronic fire-control system, and remote-controlled machine-gun turrets. Though it was designed as a high-altitude daytime bomber, in practice it actually flew more low-altitude nighttime incendiary bombing missions. It was the primary aircraft in the American firebombing campaign against the Empire of Japan in the final months of World War II, and carried the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unlike many other World War II-era bombers, the B-29 remained in service long after the war ended, with a few even being employed as flying television transmitters for the Stratovision company. The type was finally retired in the early 1960s, with 3,970 aircraft in all built.
And it should also be noted that the B29 was flown by the US Air Force, the US Army Air Forces, and the Royal Air Force, which links it back to Berkshire, from which both US and Royal Air forces flew missions during WWII.
Of course, just like with all the other theories, we have no evidence that connects it to the watch.
In reply to What's WWII about 1950 - by FifthAvenueRes…
In reply to 'BERKSHIRE' is a fitting Name by FifthAvenueRes…
Yep, I need to prove My theory.
'The Honoured Guest' B&B designed by FLW
- location: The Berkshires.
Not a straw, a rock solid Connection.
IMO.
The names of these watches simply do not have to have a connection to anything. The shear number of names is evidence of that, do we have connections such as this discussion for every other named watch Bulova produced? It could be as simple as an ad exec from Bulova landed his B29 at Berkshire after being shot up during WWII in a bombing raid over Germany and the next watch needed a name. Not saying this is what happened, but in reality its at least as likely as anything else discussed. I imagine after naming hundreds of watches, new names would be difficult to come by, and not every name has any real historical connection to anything or anybody.
Its good to research possibilities but lets not get our undies in a bunch over it, and lets certainly not toss around wrongs and rights based on conjecture and opinion instead of facts, and no facts have been presented here, only possible connections and opinions.
All of the possibilities given here could be true, but we have nothing more than guesswork at this point.
The only proof would be something in writing from one Bulova exec to another detailing such a connection and this is about as likely to be found as Atlantis...that being said, all of this research is good, and all of it could be correct, but we really have no way to prove any of this one way or another so its really all just guesswork.
Interesting theory shooter but again the WWII timeline doesn't work for the Watch.
Actually I'm more than a little insulted that the membership would derive from the FLW story, afterall it is the research that went in that produced the name.
For those here who doubt there is always the 'Flying Saucer' theory that has yet to be explored.
ML
In reply to Interesting theory shooter by FifthAvenueRes…
The watch is dated as a 1950, I would think WWII would still be very relevant to any one alive in the world...I am not saying that any of these thories are wrong, just that they are Theories...and all are good. I dont think you can take a round dial watch and super impose it over another round design and derive evidence though, you could do this with almost any round mchanical object and derive similarities.
I tend to think the FLW connection is likely, and the Berkshire connection is more likely to be WWII related than to a touristy town in the US. In 1950, we as a country were still very much involved in the aftermath of WWII and I would certainly expect many employees at Bulova at all levels to be veterans...the company was a very strong supporter of the WWII vets and of the war itself. Berkshire was very well used during the war, holding 4 seperate US airgroups and numerous British assets. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Membury
It is as likely as not that officers that used or were stationed at Berkshire may have found their way to Bulova, one of the most prolific hirers of WWII veterans.