Yet ANOTHER 40's Senator dial variation

Submitted by plainsmen on May 5, 2011 - 1:02pm

Looks like it could be legit though it's the first one I've seen in this style.  This is obviously a Bulova style for the days though.  We've seen this style in several watches.  I for one think it's a pretty sweet fit.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 1:54pm

I saw that one.  The seller called it a ladies' model and put a pink strap on it! 

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted May 5, 2011 - 2:26pm

'LADY SENATOR' ?

 : )

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 2:41pm

Maybe we could call it the Margaret Chase Smith?  ;-)

Wayne Hanley
Posted May 5, 2011 - 3:22pm

According to my measurement of 23.8 for Senator crystal length & same measurement for length of Ambassaor C. Crystal width of 17.0 Senator  & 17.3 Ambassador C. Indicates to me like a dial swap is possible. All measurements in millimeters.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 3:42pm

I'm not so sure. 

The Ambassador C dials don't have the 'partial 6' that you see on this dial, and on the much-debated Senator/Spencer 'Exploding Numerals' dial. 

Looking at the Ambassadors of that type, the distance between the center wheel arbor and the 4th wheel arbor are farther apart than on this watch.  The second handon this Senator, and thus the sub-seconds dial, are closer to the center, leaving space for the 'partial 6'.

I think the dial of the Ambassadors, which mounts on a 10A* movement, would not fit on the 8 AE in this watch.

 

 

 

Wayne Hanley
Posted May 5, 2011 - 5:03pm

I respect your opinion Doug. My Ambassador C 10AE 21j doesn't show a partial 6. Just a short vertical stripe can be seen. Obviously different dials. I recall some comments in past about two look alike Ambassador Cs and on was given a different model name.

http://www.mybulova.com/node/1461

Wayne Hanley
Posted May 5, 2011 - 4:50pm

I need a link to the subject watch. It may be the same guy making Franken whatchamacallits. I think it is! File names are same style also.

 

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 5:02pm

These Bulovas and their variations!  Just yesterday I received one, in an American Clipper case, but the movement was a 10AN from - I think - 1930, and the dial wasn't one I see on any of the American Clippers anyone has posted.  A Frankenbully, I figure. 

Then I see one very like it on Ebay, only THIS case -which looks almost exactly like the American Clipper - is HINGED.

Curiouser and curiouser.

BTW, that's a beauty, Wayne!

EDIT:  By 'That's a beauty', I meant the Ambassador.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 5:01pm

Item number 160582186208

In this case, to my eye, the fit of the dial to the bezel opening is really, really good.  If it isn't original, it had to come from another watch that is very close - the Drake?  The Radio City?  The Spencer? (Trying to remember all the ones that take the same crystal).

 

Wayne Hanley
Posted May 5, 2011 - 5:59pm

It is a pretty clean job. I wouldn't suspect anything was amiss if I hadn't been in the discussion about Senators and their dials. After looking at step-cased Senators thru the years, it was a very popular watch (9 years that I know of) & many pass thru ebay. This watch, with this dial appears & having never seen this dial/case combination before, it jumps right out at me and says check it out. But it is oh so strange to never have seen it before. I kinda like the looks of it. Maybe it's the long lost Aviator! LOL.

Under the written desription the seller states "Unless I grossly misrepresented the item THIS WATCH IS SOLD AS IS. Pictures speak a thousand words. Please examine them. He also provides an email address for contact.

simpletreasures
Posted May 5, 2011 - 6:16pm

I know of two people who purchased from diamondhead4 and both turned out to be Frakenbullies or re-cased. The phrase "Gross Misrepresentation" is a subjective term open to interpretation. When you spend the time to "prove" frakenbully status you'll be offered a refund.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 6:37pm

If it were half that BIN price, I'd have already bought it, Franken or not.  I like the looks. Then again, I don't resell my watches, so there'd be little danger of it infecting the Vintage Bulova world!

 

WatchCrystals.net
Posted May 5, 2011 - 6:48pm

That Dial Variant was/is quite popular... (i.e. Handsome!) So it suffices to say that since there's also another "Montgomery" case (hereon?) sporting the same dial... then in general it's a combo of BOTH model ignorance (at the time of redial) AND "upgrading" the dial look for uniquenesss, and appeal...   

Are there ANY other illustrations, aside from the (2) ads I have here, showing this dial "look" on models OTHER than the Ambassador and President? 

 

:-)  Scott

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted May 5, 2011 - 7:12pm

We can speculate all We like but personally I wouldn't count the Dial out from being original just yet - after all, it is shown in advertisements on  2 other 1940's Models as a variant.

'PRESIDENT' - 'AMBASSADOR' - 'SENATOR'(?)

 

(....although the strap would have to go.)

simpletreasures
Posted May 5, 2011 - 7:39pm

Speculation, as you put it Mark, seems to run rampant here. I don't recall anyone saying the dial isn't original? Question is 1- is it original to the case? 2- is it original to the movement? 3-Are there any ads (at present) showing this combination?  Seems we have more questions than answers, and I agree with Doug as to personal collections. If I like it and it catches my eye, into the collection it goes!

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted May 5, 2011 - 8:28pm

Dial would have to be original to the Case - different movements:

7 linge in the 'PRES', 10 in the 'AMBASSADOR', 8 in the 'SENATOR'.

I would however question the Hands - the only advertisement shows the Hands as being a Grey-Gold color matching the Numerals and overall Color scheme of the Dial, as in Wayne's image second example.

Wrong hands IMO.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 5, 2011 - 8:35pm

In reply to by FifthAvenueRes…

Speaking of the different sizes of the movements, are the dial feet in the same place?  I imagine not.

mybulova_admin
Posted May 5, 2011 - 9:25pm

I have a number of images that I will post tonight showing NOS dial variations as release by Bulova. It looks to be a sample/parts sheet for a jeweler. They are not listed against a particular watch, but they certainly show that a number of dial variations were available.

Its quite possible that all our questioning over orginal dials and correct ad placement may be put down to the simple fact that Bulova advertised a certain model one way but also released an number of variations to cater for different tastes.

mybulova_admin
Posted May 6, 2011 - 8:56am

Ok as promised. These and a number of sheets more were sold on eBay a few months back for $$$.

Here's a sample of what I captured. These one's are the better ones.

Bulova Dials

Bulova Dials

Bulova Dials

Bulova Dials

FifthAvenueRes…
Posted May 6, 2011 - 10:32am

2nd sheet, row 2 shows the Dial as available for the 8AE.

Elgin Doug
Posted May 6, 2011 - 1:45pm

The first page looks like 'President' dials, and the top line on the second page looks like 'Douglas' ones.  

The second row on the second page are all dials I've seen on various 'Senators'.