Solid 14K 1961 ???

This was one of my grandfathers bulova's

M1 date code, solid 14k case, self winding...

What is it?

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070012.jpg

 http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070011.jpg

The band is not original...The original band (which I do have) is a gold plated stainless band.

simpletreasures
Posted October 11, 2011 - 11:08am

Sportee, you need to post pics of the back, inside of movement, all ID markings etc. then check the AD DATABASE!

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 11:19am

Sorry, I do have pics of the back, There are also some very very small markings on the backside (engraved in the case) I am taking it to a jewler today to look closely at it.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070012.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070015.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070014.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/PA070013.jpg

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 11:20am

Oh, i have looked through the add database as well...nothing that I can find there.

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 11, 2011 - 12:36pm

I missed the 14K stamp. Did anyone notice the stamp?

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 11, 2011 - 1:24pm

Im not seeing it, but it could be under the strap between the lugs...I have seen this case before tho...

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 1:28pm

The jewler that serviced it for us about 10 years ago said it was inside.

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 12:56pm

Sorry, the strap is not original. the original strap is a gold plated/stainless expandable type.

I did find a photo which has identical features/design but an earlier model in different material.

http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1957-senator-2062

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 1:16pm

Oh, the jewler that serviced it about 10 years ago (a family friend who has since retired) said teh 14k is stamped inside.

sportee
Posted October 11, 2011 - 1:26pm

Differencees between mine and the senator above:

Mine - 14 k case, dial has silver/white textured outer ring with charcoal center, the shape and style of the numbers and markers are the same hoever my markers and numbers are gold, hour/minute hands are gold with radium, only single luminous dot at 12 position, second hand is gold and differs slightly in shape.

bourg01
Posted October 11, 2011 - 4:42pm

Panel Member

Sorry, but I've never seen a 14K Bulova with a stainless back and I've never seen one only stamped inside the case, So you don't have a 14k case, the back is stainless! They are usually stamped on the outside 14k Gold, and inside would say Bulova, Fifth Ave, New York. Some Accutrons used a stainless locking ring but the back is still gold and marked as such. I doubt very much this is 14K due to the back and the lack of pictures showing the entire back with all it's markings. On top of that the pics you have provided show mild wear through along the lugs bottom edges which confirm worn gold plate. I'd bet it's a 17 Jewel selfwinder common to the period and is probably marked 10k Rolled Gold Plate, Stainless Back, inside.

If you think I'm off base here, your challenge of the day is to produce the pictures that prove this watch is 14K and prove me wrong! BUT YOU won't be able to, because  The watch is not 14K gold.

timerestoration's picture
timerestoration
Posted October 11, 2011 - 5:08pm

 Definitely NOT 14K.

Ellierose
Posted October 11, 2011 - 5:21pm

why does anyone really care if its gold or not the person doesn't seem like a collector and is only going to sell it one way or another..hopefully to someone who can appreate the watch

simpletreasures
Posted October 11, 2011 - 5:36pm

Ellierose, the info posted on this site is used for positive identification purposes, discovering the name and or model with accurate info, not speculation. Therefor accurate info is imperative. I realize your a little upset with this site because of the reaction to your other post, but try to understand that the site admin. based on consensus of members, doesn't allow reference to any active EBay auctions for a reason. That reason is, if Allowed, every seller who has a Bulova watch up for auction would post it here and flood this site with sales or free advertising if you will. This site wasn't designed for that, it's for research and discovery, not sales!

simpletreasures
Posted October 11, 2011 - 5:42pm

Oh, btw, it's ok to reference a ended auction with the listing number. Also, as to not knowing about the rules associated with this site? It's my understanding that it's listed in the "user agreement" for all new members.

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 11, 2011 - 6:03pm

I care, if Sportee says this watch is solid gold, I want to be able to tell it's solid gold. I want to see a picture of the stamp in this media. The first thing that this member says about the watch is solid gold. I guarantee he won't sell it to me.

Ya Wanna Buy a Watch?

The price of gold closed down today @ $1,664 per ounce. Down $10.00 an ounce from yesterday!

 

Ellierose
Posted October 11, 2011 - 6:15pm

i understand what this forum is used for...but the point was that instead of just the beauty of the watch and what it is the talk was about the gold...not the model....and mostly when people want to know if their watch is gold or not, most of the time it is to make a quick buck and or just scrap the case...

Ellierose
Posted October 11, 2011 - 6:20pm

and about the user agreement first of all i don't really remember 8months ago on something that i probably just skimmed over like most of the people here problem did simple...did you ever read the whole user agreement on anything, everyprogram every internet site every app...if you say you did i would find that very very very hard to believe...and you can tell the case isn't soild gold...it has a !@#@#$#@ stainless steel back to it..if anything it would be a solid gold bezel

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 11, 2011 - 6:40pm

You & I are both entitled to our opinion on this site. I think that's great.

Have a Great myBulova Day!

Ellierose
Posted October 11, 2011 - 7:07pm

WHATEVER OPINONS PEOPLE  HAVE THAT IS GREAT..BTW I LOVE THIS SITE IF I WAS SOMEONE HOW SOLD AND BOUGHT AND OWN BULOVA WATCHES WITHOUT WANTING TO KNOW INFORMATION, HISTORY,AGE AND NAME..THEN I WOULD BE A SAP...THIS FORUM ALLOWS ME TO GET THE INFO AND I AM HAPPY THAT IT EXIST...AND THAT USERS HERE INCLUDING ME ADD TO THAT INFORMATION...ITS JUST WHEN I SEE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IF SOMETHING IS GOLD I THINK THEY JUST SEE DOLLAR SIGNS...THE QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN WHAT MODEL THIS IS AND DID IT COME WITH A GOLD BEZEL...

plainsmen
Posted October 11, 2011 - 8:43pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Dude... is your capslock broken?  It's list a little hard to read in all caps.

mybulova_admin
Posted October 12, 2011 - 7:31am

Club 5000Panel Member

Ellierose, part of what makes this website great (IMO) are the members who participate in the forum discussions. A vital part of these discussions comes from members asking questions to gain a detailed understanding of the watch in question. In many circumstances the Gold content of a watch does in deed help narrow down a certain model of a watch and I highly doubt that members of this site are asking such questions for monetary reasons.

If you have been in this business long enough with collecting and trying to identify vintage Bulova watches you will no doubt understand the importantance of these small details.

I would dearly like to know what other websites are bagging this site. Hey they have their right to, but I'll put that down to professional jealousy. This site has some wonderful members, both passionate and knowledgeable and IMO these 2 factors make this website a very useful tool for anyone looking for information about vintage Bulova watches.

Like any online forum people have a right to express their opinions, I just ask that on myBulova.com they do so in a kind and polite manner.

Thank you.

 

OldTicker
Posted October 11, 2011 - 9:28pm

All CORRECT information is very relevent in making a positive ID on a watch, It helps those of us that dam near have every ad memorized know where to look.

In this era of a watch, most 14K solid cases are 21 or higher jewel count and all we have to go on is 14K, Selfwinding, and M1 with only case and dial pictures.

As much info as possible is needed for a correct ID right down to the size of the crystal, and the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" applies here on all ID's.

Right now my guess is that it is a 17J Clipper of some sorts and that it does not have a solid 14K bezel.

Greg

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 12, 2011 - 9:36am

The Tuxedo being a perfect example of how important gold content is, Tuxedo is solid, but shares the exact case as another named watch that is rgp (rgp model name slips my mind at the moment but I believe its an Excellancy series) and that differance is huge. If someone takes the time to try and research a vintage watch, we feel we should provide accurate info if at all possible. No one here makes anything from this site($) in fact it costs money for admin and those of us who donate to keep it going, not to mention countless hours of time.

bourg01
Posted October 12, 2011 - 10:24am

Panel Member

 Hey Shooter, You got that right, 1946 shows 3 watches all with the same case.

Tuxedo in 14K yellow gold with 14K basket weave band, the "Craftsman" in 14K yellow gold, leather band and the "Ambassador"  14K rose gold filled.

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 11:08am

My apologies for stirring things up so much. I did not mean to say that it is without a doubt a solid gold watch. Rather i wanted to see if I could confirm or not. The back is stainless, however the bezel/case are one solid piece which I was told are 14K.  This is what an old family friend who was a retired jewler/watchsmith told my father when he serviced it for us back in 2001. I would like to confirm one way or another but it is not a big deal as it is not something I am going to sell...I don't care about value. (I won't comment on the "rants")

I managed to get the back off tonight.  The back does not say 14K but rather "stainless steel back" and I did not find any 14k markings inside (although I was not able to take the movement out as I was not able to remove the crown) . 

With regards to the "worn lugs" that seems to be an illusion of the photos. I had two high end jewelers look very closely at it today and they both agreed that if it is plated there is no wear through. 

Now for what I found inside. (I will post some pictures tomorrow)

On the pendulum are the following markings inlayed with gold:

23 JEWELS 

TWENTY THREE

BULOVA WATCH Co

11ACAC

SWISS

M1

ADJUSTED

 

OldTicker
Posted October 12, 2011 - 8:52am

That helped!

2 or maybe 3 choices known so far as ID's go on a watch dated M1

1. Bulova 23

2. Regetta

3. Beau Brumell

His Excellency's were also 23J in that era, but they always have sub seconds dials.

As far as if the bezel is solid 14K, an acid scratch test to the inside of the bezel or backside of a lug would tell you in a hurry.

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 10:31am

Good you mentioned the acid test...I was actually thinking of that one myself.

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 11:08am

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/2011-10-11193640.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/2011-10-11193857.jpg

Here are some pics of the inside.

I did manage to find the 14k stamp. Apparently when the fellow told us "inside" he meant inside the lugs. It is marked on the inside of one of the lugs. (I finally took the strap off for a closer look) The holes for the wristband pins were filled and re-drilled and the gold solder? filled the stamp. You can see it with a  loupe - i'm trying to get a photo of it for you folks but i'm having troubles getting my camera to focus that close...

Anyways, aside from the 14k/plated issue...I just want to ID the model.

Thanks.

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 12, 2011 - 11:22am

Use the MACRO setting if your camera has one...allows very close focus.

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 1:21pm

Ive tried Macro but no good. I am going to try some different lighting and see what happens

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 12, 2011 - 1:43pm

Most camera MACRO settings with autofocus require extreme steadiness to focus, ie a tripod..if you are not using one that could be the issue. Mine will look in focus but shot WILL be blurred if I dont ure a tripod. Hope that is the issue lol easy $10 fix if it is.

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 12, 2011 - 2:51pm

Compare the 1957 Senator dial (middle) features that are a match e.g. font shape of numbers & batons, the circular outline. I have seen Senator varient dials with the black cloth material in the center like this. The hands are identical in shape. The cases are the same shape as the 1960 Senator ad watch (right). I think Sportee's watch is a Senator model with a 14K solid gold case. Notice the deep luster & depth in the gold case, great to see that in a photo. 

Bulova watch

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 12, 2011 - 3:02pm

WoW Wayne lol ya had to say it 3 times !!! LMAO Just kidding, but I think your on to something, And I have seen that case here before but I cant find it

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:17pm

Four!!!! Slipsies!!!!

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 3:53pm

The senator was the closest match I could find too.

but...the movement 11ACAC (as far as I can find) was only in the Royal Clipper. 

And...the Senator and Clipper were 17 jewel movements (as far as I can find). Mine is a 23J movement with a matching date code - would this be correct for a Senator?

Oh, and this was likely purchased in Germany (if it matters at all) as that was where my grandftather was stationed at the time.

 

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 12, 2011 - 4:41pm

When you buy a solid gold watch from a jewler he will be happy to give you anything you want. At the time this watch was made, the case, dial & movement were all available & as fumble fingered as I am, could put that watch together. If I were you I would be happy with the custom Senator name than a Frankenbully.

Have aGreat myBulova day!

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 4:34pm

The lugs don't have the little notches where they meet the case like the Senator has.

They are more (smooth) like the case on this 1963 Regatta 23 http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1963-regatta-23-2744

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:17pm

Gold cases are always given a bit more quality control than SS. Here are the measurements of my Senator. Diameter 31.7mm w/o crown, 38.8mm Lug-to-Lug, 16mm between lugs. Measure your watch & compare notes.

In comparing your case (left) to the Regatta case (right). Focus on the cases at the 2 o'clock position to the top of the lug. On unkown (left) the case edge going to the lug tip appears to be rounded. Where as theRegatta (right) appears to taper in slightly from  2 o'clock to the lug tip. If it is a Regatta, how do you explain the Senator dial?

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:27pm

I see,

I agree the Senator dial is a perfect match...the 23J movement was making me wonder...

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:30pm

On the other hand, look at the top portion of the lugs on the Senator, they curve inwards a bit where mine is rounded outwards all the way to the crown.

Of course one could say that this is just styling differences between 1958  and 1961 models.

firebaron90
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:12pm

Hello all,

 

 

    If I could chime in for a second. If the watch has a stainless back, could it be possible that at some point the back could have been changed out for some reason (damaged, had a unsightly engraving, or accident), and replaced with the less expensive stainless one. They should fit, and it could happen. I picked up a Accutron 218D several years ago on ebay. It had a 14K RGPback on it. Guess what? When I replaced the band on it, I found the 14K Mark between the lugs. Had it tested and she is solid! I have since found a decent gold back for it, and it is currently in the shop for a repair (the date wheel suddenly stopped). Needless to say I got a GREAT deal on that watch.....

 

 

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:25pm

How does one have it tested to determine whether it is RGP or solid? The acid scratch would only determine % of gold as far as I know.

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:22pm

I don't have my calipers here but using a drafting scale I get roughly 32mm o/a dia., 38.5mm lug tip to lug tip and 17.2mm between the lugs. So the measurements are pretty close.

Ive read that the 11ACAC movement was a unique Bulova winding design (especially with 23 jewels), and that some watches for german and italian markets were not available elsewhere. If this is true it might explain everything quite nicely. I know my grandfather was not one to piece a watch (or anything for that matter) together. He had a few different self winding watches (Bulova's, Timex). When one stopped working or broke the crystal he just picked up another.

Although you never know ;)

 

What kind of quality was a senator known for. It seems to be a cheaper (priced) watch in the old adds but the 23J movement watches seem to be quite the opposite at the time.

shooter144's picture
shooter144
Posted October 12, 2011 - 6:46pm

A $69 watch in the late 40's early 50's equates to somewhere between $800- $1500 today, depending on how you figure the dollar value....not so cheap to me !!!!

sportee
Posted October 12, 2011 - 9:09pm

 Wayne, can you send some pics of your Senator for comparison. The only photos I can find of the round case version is the photo posted above. The 1955 add also calls it a senator FW (although not a 23J model or gold case)

http://www.mybulova.com/sites/default/files/watches/Bulova_AD_1955_2.jpg?1293999516

what is FW?

Chad.

Wayne Hanley's picture
Wayne Hanley
Posted October 13, 2011 - 10:26am

Chad

My Senator is in the database. Those are the only pictures I have. The measurement of the case should have proven the case match or not, + or - a few mm should prove to you what the case design is. You have to be comfortable with that.

As far as ads go, we have what we ave & that is the weakness of Bulova ID. I'm positive Bulova didn't advertise all of their watches at one time or another. A lot of folks here will not even attempt an ID unless a matching ad can be found. The perfect ID for this watch would be a 1961 ad for a Senator stating also avaiable in 14k, and list all the dial variants & movements. Senators were available in different varients. And also in a tonneau case. I don't ever recall a Senator offered in an ad with a 23 jewel movement. I do remember bidding on a late 50s Senator with a black cloth dial similar to your dial. I think the case & dial are Senator. The only loose end I feel is the 23 jewel movement. If you find that you ID the watch without a doubt. At this point why not contact Bulova & you might come up with some info.

 

 

sportee
Posted October 13, 2011 - 1:08pm

I didn't realize that photo was your Senator. I saw it in another thread and thought it belonged to someone else.

I agree with your statements...It is definitely a senator dial. I did find another photo on the web of the same gold case as well with a plain white senator dial so it appears that this was an available option. (that watch in particular came out of Gernamy as well) As you say, the 23J movement is the only loose end.

As I mentioned this is a watch that I wear now and then and will continue to wear. I only hoped to find out what model it is and you've done that for me. I greatly appreicate your taking the time to help me out with this one. Thank you.

Chad.

sportee
Posted October 13, 2011 - 1:31pm

Here's another one that I found with the same dial.

a 59 model, push out case, manual wind. Just the same dial.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk302/Sask-MH/1959Bulova.jpg