the 'FRANKENBULLY' category.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture

Hey all,

I thought the Membership voted against (although close) a 'FRANKENBULLY' category to the site database?

 

This will be My final post as I feel the MyBulova site has taken a strong turn in the wrong direction.

Good luck everyone!

mybulova_admin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:30am

Club 5000Panel Member

Hey Bob, it's always good to hear your thoughts.

The roots of the site and it's names sake go back to allowing anyone with an old Bulova watch to add it to the site and show off their own personal piece of Bulova.

As the site has matured we have been fortunate enough to learn a great many things. But one thing for me that is fundamentally important as the sites originator is to allow and encourage anyone and everyone to add 'their' vintage Bulova watch. I feel that if we start deleting members watches it will negative impact rather than a positive one.

This is why I am passionate about having a Frankenbully category, which by the way should only ever see a small percentage of use, we really need somewhere to put these watches to new members still feel apart of the site whilst also learning something important about their watch.

This category is not meant to muddy the waters it's meant to help clear it.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:32am

exactly Bob!

JCEagle's picture
JCEagle
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:31am

There are 2,256 members of myBulova. My time as one has been short, 9 wks, 1 day, although I have been visiting the site for a few months longer than that. 

The Frankenbully is the ego that has the character as an icon, in protest to the category. If you get his attention and get him to take his time you can get a reasoned answer, but too often I have seen those replies be "flip" and initially wrong!  The site also got fairly cluttered with unknowns and questioned IDs .

I don't know (or care) who decides who is a panel member or many other things about the operation of the site, my interest is finding information that helps me decide if I want to collect a certain watch or not.

Quite Frankly (pun intended) Anonymous, and 5th's threat to withdraw have provided some high drama fun and games. If you panel members want to squabble about the rules you should opt out and set up your own site.  From my short time here your views have been helpful, but not totally essential to what the site is intended to provide. On the other hand, you do represent a resource of experience and intense interest that is difficult to match. So debate the watch IDs and search out the catalogs, ads, etc and provide them to the site.

Admin my hats off to you !  You have managed the site better than many of the others I visit.  I have a long history in data management and know the slings and arrows that users fling. Thanks for the spell check and other improvements. The site is actually cleaner and more efficient.

This old hippie has always been an iconoclast, since before they ever showed up as glorified buttons and pics on  vid screens.   So ingnore the peace sign and fire away. 

JCEagle

mybulova_admin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:15am

Club 5000Panel Member

Thank you!

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:22am

Teaching Aid for a newb like me would be great so I can stay clear of them. I wouldn't want to pay a sum of money to find its not what was advertised. That would take a bit of work I imagine.

Just drop them of the site, be a purest until proved wrong. Then we can talk watches again.

mybulova_admin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:36am

Club 5000Panel Member

At the top of the 'What is it' forum there will be a post relating to identifying Frankenbully's. The rules are not set in croncrete by any stretch of the imagination but they should give you a few pointers what to watch out for.

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 13, 2012 - 7:42am

Club 5000Panel Member

Good thing we don't have to decide right away.  ...but in six months there could be close to 4000 "registered members" and there must be ten's of thousands of guests. 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:21am

'FRANKENBULLY' is not a recognised Bulova model.

'FRANKENBULLY' could be a Watch with only a Bulova Dial.

the 'FRANKENBULLY' should be removed from the database as it attempts to enter for not meeting the criteria of what is a Bulova - Signed Case, signed Movement, signed Dial. 'FRANKENBULLY' does not belong, no matter how passionate We are about Bulova.

A Watch with a signed Case, Movement and Dial has the potential of being a yet to be seen model, the 'UNKNOWN' -  a 'FRANKENBULLY' does not and for the site to Name and categorize someones Watch a 'FRANKENBULLY' would be an insult to the Owner (also very Childlike on Our behalf).

IMO

The poll which was taken, the last time I checked, was 48% for, 52% against.

Several long standing and regularly contributing Members have now asked for the category to be removed, I for one.

* A vote or poll should be opened to the panel members only to allow them to collectively voice their opinion, what admin does with the results would then be His choice.

 

mybulova_admin
Posted February 16, 2012 - 3:46am

Club 5000Panel Member

Just for the record. The actual end result of the original FrNkenbully category vote was 13 votes to 13 votes which if my math is correct is 50/50.

And no I did not fix the end result. That is how the poll closed.

Just for the record.

Reverend Rob's picture
Reverend Rob
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:21am

Panel Member

FWIW, we always considered a watch to be 'franken', when it was a deliberate attempt to decieve, that is, a watch cobbled together to take advantage of a novice collector or average buyer, banking on a well known name, usually. Over the years, dials have gotten trashed, crystals broken, and hands replaced. In the world of collecting, this lowers the point value of the piece. An all original watch with its factory parts intact, and in good condition, is what the collector looks for. 

However, there are many out there, and I number many customers among them, who simply don't care about these things, unless they also happen to be collectors. A Bulova movt with a Bulova case and dial is still a Bulova to them, and if the hands are not correct, they may or may not rectify that, but that would mean putting on period correct Bulova hands, (Many vintage Bulova replacement hands are exactly like, but not made by, Bulova) but NOT the original factory supplied ones.To me, it is helpful to see a watch labelled as Franken or the unknown category, with reasons stated under the pic as to why. This may mean that certain watches may change from unknown to Franken or the other way. If there is a valid reason for this, it is educational to all. It would be extremely useful to identify watches that are deliberate and obviously franken and why. 

The best example of Frankens that are right out there in the open are pocket watch conversions. These are often done with well known, sometimes high-end movts, converted to wristwatches. They still fetch high prices, and there are no shortage of buyers. A collector would look at this as merely a genuine movt, in a protective case. Watchmakers would traditionally try and help the customer who comes in with a badly damaged case, or a water damaged movt, by replacing these with brand correct cases and movts, but during the depression, for example, a running watch was better than a non-running watch, so there was a practical market for 'franken' ing. 

To be succinct: A watch, either titled 'unknown' or 'frankenbully', with various reasons why or why not, would be useful in the database. Fully identified watches, with ratings, held up as a standard to compare to, are critical also, and should not be confused with any grey area unknowns and frankens. A positively, flat-out ID of Franken would be clearly useful as a cautionary example for collectors.

One last thing I should mention, and that is this practice takes place at the Authorized Service centre. A customer coming in with a watch running slow, may leave with his watch repaired, but the movt swapped entirely. (I'm talking mechanicals here, although this is the rule for quartzes) The movt is correct, but is not the one the watch was manufactured with, and may even have a different serial number, in the case of chronometers. Personally, I am against this, and this is one of the reasons I no longer work at an authorized repair centre. 

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:38am

I have only bin here a short time, compared to most I know zip. This is a Bulova site so if its not a Bulova it shouldn't be here. Take another vote or something to end this bickering. This could go on forever, yes it is no its not.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:22am

a panel member vote.

Ellierose
Posted February 13, 2012 - 9:11am

for some reason my last post didn't show up but i agreed with the admin...a few post back i think that if a watch has the wrong dial or something then it should just be label as such or commented on...ie this watch http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1947-his-excellency-uu-3570 that i posted the dial is not factory but still very nice..should i have left the original dial? i don't think so since it was very bad and w not even a nice patina which i sometimes enjoy if it adds charm or beauty to the watch...so instead i changed the dial..this watch was not called a franken but simply what it is with a different dial...by changing the dial this watch will live on for many many years,in someone elses hand..i sold the watch but thought about keeping after seeing how great it looked and came out...and like the Rev said..a franken is usally ment to decive a buyer..as collector we can learn to look into whatever watch we want to just by because we like it...having the wrong hands or dial is not always a turn off...it does bring down the vaule but not alway..this is going to be my last post in this since it can go on forever like someone else said..that is unless i see something very dumb or stupid...

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 10:01am

Debate is good...and I am glad both panel & non-panel members are voicing their thoughts on this matter.

As Admin stated, the Frankenbully catagory is not here to promote these watches, but serves as a place to Categorize these and help clean up the unknown category...there are 13 pages of unknowns and 2 couple more get added every day...most have merit, but also many don't like your example Ellirose, and the result is just more clutter.

If you don't like the name Frankenbully, call it something else..."Hall of Shame", "Cobbled", or something else that fits.

If someone enters a watch without the information required to ID it, (no or unclear  pictures, no movement info, ect..) place it in this category as encouragement for the owner to provide the correct info required. I invite all members to spend a few hours going through the unknown database if you don't believe me. We need to do something to clean it up without discouraging and confusing participation on this site.

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 9:58am

It's a freaking 'FRANKENBULLY' and this is one of the scenerios that really ticks Me off -

Parts together Watches.

Watch repair persons see no problem with these actions as it's what it takes to get the Watch running to please the non-Collector customer or to get it sold. (cough)

As both a Collector and Restorer I have a big problem with this....

A 'FRANKENBULLY' category has further muddied already murky waters.

IMO

apologies for the rant.

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 10:07am

Yes Greg, let's list the Watches into 2 Categories now to simplify matters!

and

Who is going to go through the current 'KNOWNS' and 'UNKNOWNS' to weed out the 'FRANKIES'?

They exist in both places.... 

Ellierose
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:19am

I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM WITH THE EXAMPLE THAT I JUST POSTED..THE DIAL LOOKS NICE I NEVER MADE A CLAIM WHEN I SOLD THE WATCH THAT IT WAS ORINGAL..AND I SAID I INSTALLED A DIFFERENT DIAL..ON THE OTHER HAND I WOULDN'T CALL THIS A FRANKENBULLY..all i changed was the dial..and to say that it is a franken i think is wrong...besides the watch is still a his excellency..just with a DIFFERENT FREAKING DIAL...if a collector sees and saids i rather a beat up unreadble dial instead of a almost brand new dial that is from the same era.then thats their choice and it doesn't change the fact the its an UU with a different dial not a franken watch..ONE MORE TIME A FRANKEN IS A WATCH THAT IS COBBLED FROM MANY DIFFERENT PARTS...IE CASE AND MOVMENT AFTER MARKET PARTS AND MORE.. franken is not a watch with a different dial...of course you won't find that dial in an ad but that doesn't change what it is...now if you put together and excellency with 17j movement wrong dial and wrong case from a different company than that would be a frankenwatch...i think being a purist limits you from beautiful watches..that could be better than orignial..i as a collector wouldn't buy a watch that has  benrus movement  in a bully case or a gruen movment in a bully case or whatever..but i would buy a excellency with a nice although not factory dial then one with a one that is unreadable..also i don't care if you hate a watch like that...i hate alot of things but i don't freak out on people or their watches..becasue of some small little problem...and the watch i posted is an UU with a different dial..NOT A FRANKEN WATCH...TO SAY THAT IT IS BEING ARROGANT...WHICH ALOT OF PEOPLE IN FORUMS ARE...ALWAYS THINKING THEY ARE THE SMARTEST OR THE MOST KNOWLEDGABLE ON WHATEVER SUBJECT.....ALSO WHY WOULD A WATCH LIKE WHAT I POSTED BE IN THE HALL OF SHAME..IF A NEW MEMBER ADD THAT WATCH AND YOU PUT THAT IN A HALL OF SHAME YOU WON'T KEEP MANY MEMBERS...I HAVE NO PROBLEM SAYING WHAT A WATCH IS BUT JUST SIMPLY LABEL SOMEING LIKE ABOVE A FRANKEN IS BEING LAZY AND ARROGANT.BECAUSE ITS NOT A FRANKEN IT IS WHAT IT IS AN UU WITH A DIFFERENT DIAL NOTHING ELSE......

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:40am

Ellirose,

One more time...

The purpose of this site is to correctly ID the Bulova models, if your watch with a incorrect dial is lumped in with the unknowns, how will that help with the ID process??, it won't, because you will never find a ad with that dial being factory produced by Bulova on that model of watch.

It doesn't belong in the unknown category, because it is not a true "Factory Produced Bulova Watch".

You are forgetting the Main Goal of this site...that is to properly ID the models of the Bulova Brand.

I am not trying to put down your watch, all I am saying is it belongs in a different category than the known's or unknown's, because the main purpose of both categories is the proper ID of all Bulova models.

Greg

 

 

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:17pm

AMEN!

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:16am

It seems to me that we have competing visions for the site and the database, and I'm of two minds myself.

On the one hand, I'd bet most of us collectors started out with a watch we bought because it looked cool.  Sometimes these are authentic, sometimes not.  New collectors want to share their 'cool watches' and LEARN.   Many of them will go on to collect a particular brand, and make their contributions to our collective knowledge.  For those new collectors, the Frankenbully category acknoledges their acquisition, allows them to show off their watch, and encourages their further education and participation. 

By contrast, telling them their watch isn't good enough is a way to turn them off of the whole hobby.  These new recruits often end up contributing a lot, and I think they're folks we want to encourage.  They're the future of watch collecting.

OTOH, there are folks here who've spent years learning the intricacies of Bulova nomenclature, buying and sharing ads to build the knowledge base, finding and identifying authentic Bulova watches.  Hours of painstaking work poring over enlargements of ads, trying to discern exact case shapes from poorly reproduced artists drawings (see the Senator/Spencer controversy).  To include Frankens in the database must seem like a contamination. 

I'm not sure there's a way to accomodate both points of view, if the experienced collectors can't stand the presence of inauthentic pieces.  I guess in the end my point would be to remember that this is supposed to be FUN, an enjoyable hobby and learning experience, and maybe we shouldn't take ourselves so dang seriously.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:51am

Your right Doug,

As I see it, this site was created for a couple of purposes...recreating the lost history of the Bulova brand...and that is a very big task, also encouraging both seasoned collectors and new collectors alike by serving as a reliable source for Bulova brand/model information and education.

If these goals are going to be met, some requirements & rules will have to be adhered by, or it just becomes a site to post pictures of watches.

 

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 12:07pm

After I posted, it occured to me that the site can actually be both.  Posting a watch in the 'What Is It' forum doesn't require entering it in the database.  All you need is a Photobucket or other account, and you can link to the picture...

Like that. It's not entered in the database, but you get to show it off, and ask the opinion of the experienced collectors.  Watches that are clearly Frankens, we can identify as such.  We can also exclude them from the database, because it's a separate entity from the posts.

As I think further, I'm inclined to favor ditching the Frankenbully category, and exclude from the database watches we know FOR SURE are Frankens, not just compos we've not seen before.  But I don't feel strongly enough that it makes or breaks my participation (such as it is) here.

Watch4Me
Posted February 13, 2012 - 12:11pm

That approach was discussed--and rejected--some time ago in this thread:  http://www.mybulova.com/node/2323

You would be denying free and open access to the database to anyone who joins the site and wants to post a watch, and Admin has made it clear that's not what he wants.

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 12:32pm

Should have quit while I was ahead, eh?  ;-)

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 13, 2012 - 11:42am

Club 5000

Well said Doug.

Watch4Me
Posted February 13, 2012 - 12:07pm

There is "serious" collecting, and there is "just for fun" collecting.  Both are legitimate approaches, and each is "fun" to the collector involved, just in different ways and for different reasons. 

However, both approaches may not be able to cohabit peacefully on this site, as the ultimate goal of each takes them in very different directions, and the approach of one is inherently offensive, in one regard or another, to the approach of the other.  Just reading through this thread confirms that assertion, without a doubt.

My take is that this site is about the "just for fun" collecting (and eBay resellers just looking for a way to make more money by slapping a name on their watch), and any serious collector is going to be very frustrated by what gets posted on this site and offered three star confirmation (or, in some cases, any stars at all).

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 12:44pm

Car analogy (sorry ladies)

If  I enter my '66 Mustang in the concours event at the car show it will be judged on various point of authenticity. Regardless of how many points are deducted my car is still a '66 Mustang because of the body style and VIN, no matter what's under the hood or the paint scheme. It may not be a perfect representation of what left the factory but it is what it is. Why can't we approach the categorization of watches in the same way? 

Darren

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:24pm

a customized '66 Mustang could not compete in the Concours category.

Concours is reserved for factory originals....and within the category the Car would lose points if the ashtray wasn't correct.

 

Lisa is a Car buff, She drives a Nova?

: )

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:26pm

OMG!

 

Darren (middle-aged guy who just used OMG!)

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:34pm

Fifth has managed to goad me out of my silence, though only long enough to protest that I do not drive a Nova.  Jeez. . . . who do you think I am?  NOVA is a common abbreviation--around here anyway--for Northern Virginia.   For the record, I drive a Subaru. 

Now, what was I doing before being so rudely interrupted. . . .?

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:39pm

Going to the Ford dealership?

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:41pm

Not a chance.

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:54pm

I just realized that you may have thought my OMG remark was in response to you driving a Nova. It wasn't. It was in reference to Fifth's "concours" comment.

Darren (interuptous, rudeous)

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:59pm

I have an '84 Mustang GT Vert - One of 5,700 produced in that Year.

Last Year for the Carb, 1st Year for the roller cam 302.

We know Cars....

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:06pm

LOL!  Darhin, your response so exactly mirrored my reaction to the Nova comment.  Though I can see how it would be equally shocking to find one in agreement with Fifth.  Doesn't happen very often. ;>}

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:23pm

Can't identify all Bulova's due to bad records but cars are well documented. I want to come here to get a proper id for a watch. Why make it harder than it already is.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:37pm

'FRANKENBULLY' is just the wrong term to use for a category IMO. it degrades the Watch and the Watch Owner - the word is brutal.

We all know what one is and can point and whisper amongst Ourselves.

Watch4Me made a valid point - Co-Existance. How do We.

Custom?

There would be no reason for the site panel to rate any of them...

Reverend Rob's picture
Reverend Rob
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:38pm

Panel Member

I think once a watch has been positively ID'ed as being a proper model and original with a majority concensus, it should be in the database as such. The database should be a stand alone archive for this purpose, and I'm afraid that variants, unknowns, frankens, etc, will orbit this main database in the interest of all involved, as the 'other' category, with no derogation intended. This would include the funky red dial bullies, etc. Kind of like when John Lennon painted his Rolls all psychedelic, it was still a Rolls. 

Anyway, identification requires categorization, and this would satisfy that requirement. A franken could become a legit watch with the addition of the correct dial, for instance, could it not, if that was what was lacking? As long as it is clear what it is we are looking at, so we can further identify our own watches as they come to us. That seems to be to me, the point. I would use the confirmed database in this way, while posting my unconfirmed watch in the other category. The 'franken' category, in the strictest sense, is a watch which is missing a genuine element, or has something added that does not belong, and unless it is modded back to a 'model correct' or 'authentic' state, would remain a franken. Most antique cars fall into this category, as there are a precious few that could claim to be 'original'. I also believe this very discussion to be healthy, and whatever ends up happening, I will continue to be a member here, and take no offense to one of my watches being identified as franken, if indeed it is.

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:07pm

Just to be clear on categories:

"Known", "Unknown" = Good

"Frankenbuly" = Bad

I'm in your camp, Fifth.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:43pm

We're all in the same camp DarHin, it's just sometimes We don't all agree.

I'm searching for middle ground here so everyone who enjoys the site can 'exist' and I think a Category named 'CUSTOM' almost fits the bill ?

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:43pm

Now we are getting somewhere!!

Non Bulova would open up another can of worms...and we don't need that right now...

heading to the dictionary....: D

An here all this time I thought Lisa was a Nova collector...(slapping myself) : )

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:45pm

a 'CUSTOM' Bulova Watch would still need to meet the site criteria: 

Signed Case, Signed Movement, Signed Dial....

 

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:50pm

Crap CUSTOM a new category.

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 1:55pm

"Crap Custom".  I like that.  I have quite a few to enter, all with really brightly colored dials.

And, yes, Fifth, they all have Bulova signed cases, movements, and dials.

Gerard
Posted February 13, 2012 - 3:29pm

I wasn't refering to the customs as crap but anyway Corvette Yellow wasn't a Bulova color.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:03pm

That's the Watch category they would need to be assigned to - 'CUSTOM'.

You're liking the idea, I know You are...

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:10pm

Club 5000

How about this?

1 Star= Frankenbully

2 Star= Model identification not confirmed by the majority of site members 

3 Star= Model identification tentative by the majority of site members 

4 star= Model identification confirmed by the majority of site members 

At least FB's would be separated from unknowns.

Please Substitute majority of site members with panel members.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 13, 2012 - 2:13pm

Club 5000

Oh and by the way despite what is says next to my name I am not a panel member.

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 13, 2012 - 3:54pm

Club 5000Panel Member

With the icon there, Bob, you and I both appear to be.  And are most likely preceived as such by many members.  Now that I know abstaining from voting does not affect those more qualified to vote on ID'ing, I can ignore it, however I should not ignore how it is preceived.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:43pm

I have always considered Bob a panel member from day 1, and Will, I think you have earned the right to be one also...We have to have some sanity here!