Hey all,
I thought the Membership voted against (although close) a 'FRANKENBULLY' category to the site database?
This will be My final post as I feel the MyBulova site has taken a strong turn in the wrong direction.
Good luck everyone!
In reply to Ok here We go. 1. I don't by Bob Bruno
Hey Bob, it's always good to hear your thoughts.
The roots of the site and it's names sake go back to allowing anyone with an old Bulova watch to add it to the site and show off their own personal piece of Bulova.
As the site has matured we have been fortunate enough to learn a great many things. But one thing for me that is fundamentally important as the sites originator is to allow and encourage anyone and everyone to add 'their' vintage Bulova watch. I feel that if we start deleting members watches it will negative impact rather than a positive one.
This is why I am passionate about having a Frankenbully category, which by the way should only ever see a small percentage of use, we really need somewhere to put these watches to new members still feel apart of the site whilst also learning something important about their watch.
This category is not meant to muddy the waters it's meant to help clear it.
In reply to Ok here We go. 1. I don't by Bob Bruno
There are 2,256 members of myBulova. My time as one has been short, 9 wks, 1 day, although I have been visiting the site for a few months longer than that.
The Frankenbully is the ego that has the character as an icon, in protest to the category. If you get his attention and get him to take his time you can get a reasoned answer, but too often I have seen those replies be "flip" and initially wrong! The site also got fairly cluttered with unknowns and questioned IDs .
I don't know (or care) who decides who is a panel member or many other things about the operation of the site, my interest is finding information that helps me decide if I want to collect a certain watch or not.
Quite Frankly (pun intended) Anonymous, and 5th's threat to withdraw have provided some high drama fun and games. If you panel members want to squabble about the rules you should opt out and set up your own site. From my short time here your views have been helpful, but not totally essential to what the site is intended to provide. On the other hand, you do represent a resource of experience and intense interest that is difficult to match. So debate the watch IDs and search out the catalogs, ads, etc and provide them to the site.
Admin my hats off to you ! You have managed the site better than many of the others I visit. I have a long history in data management and know the slings and arrows that users fling. Thanks for the spell check and other improvements. The site is actually cleaner and more efficient.
This old hippie has always been an iconoclast, since before they ever showed up as glorified buttons and pics on vid screens. So ingnore the peace sign and fire away.
JCEagle
Teaching Aid for a newb like me would be great so I can stay clear of them. I wouldn't want to pay a sum of money to find its not what was advertised. That would take a bit of work I imagine.
Just drop them of the site, be a purest until proved wrong. Then we can talk watches again.
'FRANKENBULLY' is not a recognised Bulova model.
'FRANKENBULLY' could be a Watch with only a Bulova Dial.
the 'FRANKENBULLY' should be removed from the database as it attempts to enter for not meeting the criteria of what is a Bulova - Signed Case, signed Movement, signed Dial. 'FRANKENBULLY' does not belong, no matter how passionate We are about Bulova.
A Watch with a signed Case, Movement and Dial has the potential of being a yet to be seen model, the 'UNKNOWN' - a 'FRANKENBULLY' does not and for the site to Name and categorize someones Watch a 'FRANKENBULLY' would be an insult to the Owner (also very Childlike on Our behalf).
IMO
The poll which was taken, the last time I checked, was 48% for, 52% against.
Several long standing and regularly contributing Members have now asked for the category to be removed, I for one.
* A vote or poll should be opened to the panel members only to allow them to collectively voice their opinion, what admin does with the results would then be His choice.
In reply to 'FRANKENBULLY' is not a by FifthAvenueRes…
FWIW, we always considered a watch to be 'franken', when it was a deliberate attempt to decieve, that is, a watch cobbled together to take advantage of a novice collector or average buyer, banking on a well known name, usually. Over the years, dials have gotten trashed, crystals broken, and hands replaced. In the world of collecting, this lowers the point value of the piece. An all original watch with its factory parts intact, and in good condition, is what the collector looks for.
However, there are many out there, and I number many customers among them, who simply don't care about these things, unless they also happen to be collectors. A Bulova movt with a Bulova case and dial is still a Bulova to them, and if the hands are not correct, they may or may not rectify that, but that would mean putting on period correct Bulova hands, (Many vintage Bulova replacement hands are exactly like, but not made by, Bulova) but NOT the original factory supplied ones.To me, it is helpful to see a watch labelled as Franken or the unknown category, with reasons stated under the pic as to why. This may mean that certain watches may change from unknown to Franken or the other way. If there is a valid reason for this, it is educational to all. It would be extremely useful to identify watches that are deliberate and obviously franken and why.
The best example of Frankens that are right out there in the open are pocket watch conversions. These are often done with well known, sometimes high-end movts, converted to wristwatches. They still fetch high prices, and there are no shortage of buyers. A collector would look at this as merely a genuine movt, in a protective case. Watchmakers would traditionally try and help the customer who comes in with a badly damaged case, or a water damaged movt, by replacing these with brand correct cases and movts, but during the depression, for example, a running watch was better than a non-running watch, so there was a practical market for 'franken' ing.
To be succinct: A watch, either titled 'unknown' or 'frankenbully', with various reasons why or why not, would be useful in the database. Fully identified watches, with ratings, held up as a standard to compare to, are critical also, and should not be confused with any grey area unknowns and frankens. A positively, flat-out ID of Franken would be clearly useful as a cautionary example for collectors.
One last thing I should mention, and that is this practice takes place at the Authorized Service centre. A customer coming in with a watch running slow, may leave with his watch repaired, but the movt swapped entirely. (I'm talking mechanicals here, although this is the rule for quartzes) The movt is correct, but is not the one the watch was manufactured with, and may even have a different serial number, in the case of chronometers. Personally, I am against this, and this is one of the reasons I no longer work at an authorized repair centre.
for some reason my last post didn't show up but i agreed with the admin...a few post back i think that if a watch has the wrong dial or something then it should just be label as such or commented on...ie this watch http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1947-his-excellency-uu-3570 that i posted the dial is not factory but still very nice..should i have left the original dial? i don't think so since it was very bad and w not even a nice patina which i sometimes enjoy if it adds charm or beauty to the watch...so instead i changed the dial..this watch was not called a franken but simply what it is with a different dial...by changing the dial this watch will live on for many many years,in someone elses hand..i sold the watch but thought about keeping after seeing how great it looked and came out...and like the Rev said..a franken is usally ment to decive a buyer..as collector we can learn to look into whatever watch we want to just by because we like it...having the wrong hands or dial is not always a turn off...it does bring down the vaule but not alway..this is going to be my last post in this since it can go on forever like someone else said..that is unless i see something very dumb or stupid...
Debate is good...and I am glad both panel & non-panel members are voicing their thoughts on this matter.
As Admin stated, the Frankenbully catagory is not here to promote these watches, but serves as a place to Categorize these and help clean up the unknown category...there are 13 pages of unknowns and 2 couple more get added every day...most have merit, but also many don't like your example Ellirose, and the result is just more clutter.
If you don't like the name Frankenbully, call it something else..."Hall of Shame", "Cobbled", or something else that fits.
If someone enters a watch without the information required to ID it, (no or unclear pictures, no movement info, ect..) place it in this category as encouragement for the owner to provide the correct info required. I invite all members to spend a few hours going through the unknown database if you don't believe me. We need to do something to clean it up without discouraging and confusing participation on this site.
It's a freaking 'FRANKENBULLY' and this is one of the scenerios that really ticks Me off -
Parts together Watches.
Watch repair persons see no problem with these actions as it's what it takes to get the Watch running to please the non-Collector customer or to get it sold. (cough)
As both a Collector and Restorer I have a big problem with this....
A 'FRANKENBULLY' category has further muddied already murky waters.
IMO
apologies for the rant.
I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM WITH THE EXAMPLE THAT I JUST POSTED..THE DIAL LOOKS NICE I NEVER MADE A CLAIM WHEN I SOLD THE WATCH THAT IT WAS ORINGAL..AND I SAID I INSTALLED A DIFFERENT DIAL..ON THE OTHER HAND I WOULDN'T CALL THIS A FRANKENBULLY..all i changed was the dial..and to say that it is a franken i think is wrong...besides the watch is still a his excellency..just with a DIFFERENT FREAKING DIAL...if a collector sees and saids i rather a beat up unreadble dial instead of a almost brand new dial that is from the same era.then thats their choice and it doesn't change the fact the its an UU with a different dial not a franken watch..ONE MORE TIME A FRANKEN IS A WATCH THAT IS COBBLED FROM MANY DIFFERENT PARTS...IE CASE AND MOVMENT AFTER MARKET PARTS AND MORE.. franken is not a watch with a different dial...of course you won't find that dial in an ad but that doesn't change what it is...now if you put together and excellency with 17j movement wrong dial and wrong case from a different company than that would be a frankenwatch...i think being a purist limits you from beautiful watches..that could be better than orignial..i as a collector wouldn't buy a watch that has benrus movement in a bully case or a gruen movment in a bully case or whatever..but i would buy a excellency with a nice although not factory dial then one with a one that is unreadable..also i don't care if you hate a watch like that...i hate alot of things but i don't freak out on people or their watches..becasue of some small little problem...and the watch i posted is an UU with a different dial..NOT A FRANKEN WATCH...TO SAY THAT IT IS BEING ARROGANT...WHICH ALOT OF PEOPLE IN FORUMS ARE...ALWAYS THINKING THEY ARE THE SMARTEST OR THE MOST KNOWLEDGABLE ON WHATEVER SUBJECT.....ALSO WHY WOULD A WATCH LIKE WHAT I POSTED BE IN THE HALL OF SHAME..IF A NEW MEMBER ADD THAT WATCH AND YOU PUT THAT IN A HALL OF SHAME YOU WON'T KEEP MANY MEMBERS...I HAVE NO PROBLEM SAYING WHAT A WATCH IS BUT JUST SIMPLY LABEL SOMEING LIKE ABOVE A FRANKEN IS BEING LAZY AND ARROGANT.BECAUSE ITS NOT A FRANKEN IT IS WHAT IT IS AN UU WITH A DIFFERENT DIAL NOTHING ELSE......
In reply to I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM WITH by Ellierose
Ellirose,
One more time...
The purpose of this site is to correctly ID the Bulova models, if your watch with a incorrect dial is lumped in with the unknowns, how will that help with the ID process??, it won't, because you will never find a ad with that dial being factory produced by Bulova on that model of watch.
It doesn't belong in the unknown category, because it is not a true "Factory Produced Bulova Watch".
You are forgetting the Main Goal of this site...that is to properly ID the models of the Bulova Brand.
I am not trying to put down your watch, all I am saying is it belongs in a different category than the known's or unknown's, because the main purpose of both categories is the proper ID of all Bulova models.
Greg
In reply to Ellirose, One more by OldTicker
It seems to me that we have competing visions for the site and the database, and I'm of two minds myself.
On the one hand, I'd bet most of us collectors started out with a watch we bought because it looked cool. Sometimes these are authentic, sometimes not. New collectors want to share their 'cool watches' and LEARN. Many of them will go on to collect a particular brand, and make their contributions to our collective knowledge. For those new collectors, the Frankenbully category acknoledges their acquisition, allows them to show off their watch, and encourages their further education and participation.
By contrast, telling them their watch isn't good enough is a way to turn them off of the whole hobby. These new recruits often end up contributing a lot, and I think they're folks we want to encourage. They're the future of watch collecting.
OTOH, there are folks here who've spent years learning the intricacies of Bulova nomenclature, buying and sharing ads to build the knowledge base, finding and identifying authentic Bulova watches. Hours of painstaking work poring over enlargements of ads, trying to discern exact case shapes from poorly reproduced artists drawings (see the Senator/Spencer controversy). To include Frankens in the database must seem like a contamination.
I'm not sure there's a way to accomodate both points of view, if the experienced collectors can't stand the presence of inauthentic pieces. I guess in the end my point would be to remember that this is supposed to be FUN, an enjoyable hobby and learning experience, and maybe we shouldn't take ourselves so dang seriously.
In reply to It seems to me that we have by Elgin Doug
Your right Doug,
As I see it, this site was created for a couple of purposes...recreating the lost history of the Bulova brand...and that is a very big task, also encouraging both seasoned collectors and new collectors alike by serving as a reliable source for Bulova brand/model information and education.
If these goals are going to be met, some requirements & rules will have to be adhered by, or it just becomes a site to post pictures of watches.
In reply to Your right Doug, As I see it, by OldTicker
After I posted, it occured to me that the site can actually be both. Posting a watch in the 'What Is It' forum doesn't require entering it in the database. All you need is a Photobucket or other account, and you can link to the picture...
Like that. It's not entered in the database, but you get to show it off, and ask the opinion of the experienced collectors. Watches that are clearly Frankens, we can identify as such. We can also exclude them from the database, because it's a separate entity from the posts.
As I think further, I'm inclined to favor ditching the Frankenbully category, and exclude from the database watches we know FOR SURE are Frankens, not just compos we've not seen before. But I don't feel strongly enough that it makes or breaks my participation (such as it is) here.
In reply to After I posted, it occured to by Elgin Doug
That approach was discussed--and rejected--some time ago in this thread: http://www.mybulova.com/node/2323
You would be denying free and open access to the database to anyone who joins the site and wants to post a watch, and Admin has made it clear that's not what he wants.
In reply to That approach was by Watch4Me
There is "serious" collecting, and there is "just for fun" collecting. Both are legitimate approaches, and each is "fun" to the collector involved, just in different ways and for different reasons.
However, both approaches may not be able to cohabit peacefully on this site, as the ultimate goal of each takes them in very different directions, and the approach of one is inherently offensive, in one regard or another, to the approach of the other. Just reading through this thread confirms that assertion, without a doubt.
My take is that this site is about the "just for fun" collecting (and eBay resellers just looking for a way to make more money by slapping a name on their watch), and any serious collector is going to be very frustrated by what gets posted on this site and offered three star confirmation (or, in some cases, any stars at all).
Car analogy (sorry ladies)
If I enter my '66 Mustang in the concours event at the car show it will be judged on various point of authenticity. Regardless of how many points are deducted my car is still a '66 Mustang because of the body style and VIN, no matter what's under the hood or the paint scheme. It may not be a perfect representation of what left the factory but it is what it is. Why can't we approach the categorization of watches in the same way?
Darren
In reply to a customized '66 Mustang by FifthAvenueRes…
In reply to OMG! Darren (middle-aged by DarHin
Fifth has managed to goad me out of my silence, though only long enough to protest that I do not drive a Nova. Jeez. . . . who do you think I am? NOVA is a common abbreviation--around here anyway--for Northern Virginia. For the record, I drive a Subaru.
Now, what was I doing before being so rudely interrupted. . . .?
In reply to Fifth has managed to goad me by NOVA
In reply to Going to the Ford dealership? by DarHin
In reply to Fifth has managed to goad me by NOVA
In reply to I just realized that you may by DarHin
In reply to I just realized that you may by DarHin
'FRANKENBULLY' is just the wrong term to use for a category IMO. it degrades the Watch and the Watch Owner - the word is brutal.
We all know what one is and can point and whisper amongst Ourselves.
Watch4Me made a valid point - Co-Existance. How do We.
Custom?
There would be no reason for the site panel to rate any of them...
I think once a watch has been positively ID'ed as being a proper model and original with a majority concensus, it should be in the database as such. The database should be a stand alone archive for this purpose, and I'm afraid that variants, unknowns, frankens, etc, will orbit this main database in the interest of all involved, as the 'other' category, with no derogation intended. This would include the funky red dial bullies, etc. Kind of like when John Lennon painted his Rolls all psychedelic, it was still a Rolls.
Anyway, identification requires categorization, and this would satisfy that requirement. A franken could become a legit watch with the addition of the correct dial, for instance, could it not, if that was what was lacking? As long as it is clear what it is we are looking at, so we can further identify our own watches as they come to us. That seems to be to me, the point. I would use the confirmed database in this way, while posting my unconfirmed watch in the other category. The 'franken' category, in the strictest sense, is a watch which is missing a genuine element, or has something added that does not belong, and unless it is modded back to a 'model correct' or 'authentic' state, would remain a franken. Most antique cars fall into this category, as there are a precious few that could claim to be 'original'. I also believe this very discussion to be healthy, and whatever ends up happening, I will continue to be a member here, and take no offense to one of my watches being identified as franken, if indeed it is.
In reply to Crap CUSTOM a new category. by Gerard
In reply to "Crap Custom". I like that. by NOVA
How about this?
1 Star= Frankenbully
2 Star= Model identification not confirmed by the majority of site members
3 Star= Model identification tentative by the majority of site members
4 star= Model identification confirmed by the majority of site members
At least FB's would be separated from unknowns.
Please Substitute majority of site members with panel members.
In reply to Oh and by the way despite by Bob Bruno
With the icon there, Bob, you and I both appear to be. And are most likely preceived as such by many members. Now that I know abstaining from voting does not affect those more qualified to vote on ID'ing, I can ignore it, however I should not ignore how it is preceived.
In reply to With the icon there, Bob, you by William Smith