the 'FRANKENBULLY' category.

You still have to address what criteria will be used for "model identification" at each stage.  Are you really just trying to identify the model, or are you also rating overall authenticity and completeness in regard to that model in its original condition?  What elements constitute a model ID--just the case; case and movement; case, movement, and dial; case, movement, dial, and hands, etc?  At what point, if any, does a model become "custom", as Fifth suggests?  What constitutes a 1 Star Frankenbully?  We continue to lack sufficient, defined criteria necessary to support any rating system, and any attempt to do so, in the past, has been deemed overly technical and restrictive.

this is silly after awhile..personally i don't think a watch with just a different dial is a franken watch..just like i don't think a watch with different hands is a franken watch...its just what it is a watch with different hands...2nd a franken watch is something that doesn't match at all ie a different brand case with  a bulova movement that is a franken..not a excellency with a different dial...you can identify it..its already a known watch..that is how i know it as a UU ..by me adding a different dial doesn't change that fact..so when a car is restored and u use a new piece of chrome then the chrome on that was on the car is it different car?does it change the name of the car? no? so i or you restore a dial and have it made black instead of the factory white, is that then a franken watch? its not factory...then all we have is a say a clipper with a non original dial..you would never be able to id that in the ad but it is till a clipper JUST WITH A DIFFERENT COLOR DIAL...AND THAT IS THE LAST TIME I AM GOING TO CHIME IN ON THIS...A EXCELLENCY WITH A NEW DIAL IS NOT A FRANKEN WATCH...what if a bullly owner need to replace his dial sent it to bulova and they didn't have anymore of the oringal dial to put on the watch? the use something newer..does that change the name? no...a  FRANKEN WATCH IS SOMETHING THAT HAS AFTERMARKET PARTS AND OR DIFFERENT COMPANY WATCH PARTS ON THE SAME WATCH..IE A BENRUS MOVEMENT IN A BULOVA CASE OR VISE VERSA...GOING BACK TO A RESTORED CAR IF YOU RESTORE EVERY PART AND NOT ONE ORIGNAL PART IS LEFT ITS STILL THE SAME CAR....

Am I misaprehending?  Is it really just about the NAME 'Frankenbully'? 

If we had a different category for watches altered from original, like "Modified", to cover the non-original redial situation that Ellierose posits, would that be acceptable?

How about:

1. Original: Case, Dial, Hands, Movement all match an ad or catalog contemporary with the data codes.
2. Modified: Some aspect known to be not original - painted dial, incorrect replacement dial or hands.
3. "Marriage Watch": Clear recase, like watches with 'Bulova Movement' dials and non-Bulova cases wrapped around Bulova movements.

Watches that don't definitively fit in categories 2 or 3 are assumed to be Original, but still need to be vetted by the panel for '3-star' rating using the criteria already established.

Certainly, a 'Modified' watch can add to the general knowledge, if it's acknowledged as such. 

Just my ideas.  Feel free to ignore 'em!

maybe elgin is right..in watch collector terms a franken watch is what i described before..not just something with a different dial..and i am just not talking about my watch that was just an example...i am talking about any watch..

What about a watch were there is no corresponding ad?  You have no way to know if that watch is original, or modified, or a cobble.

What about a watch that matches the ad except for a different dial or band or whatever?  Would you then be making the assumption that any difference from the ad we happen to have on hand is a modification, rather than simply a version that we haven't yet seen in an ad?

My point is that, without a known complete set of adverts, you will be making a lot of assumptions that may be far from correct.  You may very often judge a watch as "modified" that was, in fact, a factory original.

repeat after Me: "Now We are overthinking this"

Keep it simple - 'CUSTOM'

for the close calls there is the 'UNKNOWN' category.

this doesn't have to be that difficult to figure out..why not just call something what it is when it comes up...if its a known model then you know what to look for..if its something that no one has seen the discuss it and figure it out..

Whatever you want to call any category, its meaningless without consistent, objective standards.  Otherwise, all you'll end up in every instance with what you have now--just a bunch of opinions, offered by people who aren't even following the same rules, because the rules haven't been defined.  What you call "custom", someone else will argue is simply a variant.  (And they could be proved right. . .if/when the appropriate ad shows up).

I like that terms Custom or Other or Marriage etc.... or at least what they are trying to accomplish as a category.   It's friendly- since that appears to be an important part of this discussion.  Things in Custom could remain there for folks to "learn from".  Watches in known or unknown would continue to be discussed by everyone, w/ the panel members listening to everyone's legitimate arguments/documentation etc... as they have been all along.  Then they "vote".    IMO coexistence is not a problem, and I believe we are doing it already.  If set up correctly, the site could meet the goal of ID'ing models w/ knowledgeable consensus and still allow any user to enter a bulova somewhere, without taking away any "credibility" from the soundness of the ID process or excluding any member or their "bulova" watch.  It seems like we are all close, it's just wording and mechanics of how to meet these goals if members feel both should be met.  It't obvious members feel they should be discussed.

I agree we need a set of workign definitions and clear rules with which to make dicissions. 

Something as simple to use as a dicotomous key, with only two answers at each level.  If A then ....1, if B then.....2.  With this set up correctly, we can address any concern or convolution by moving down to the next set of two choices.  It's the design of this key that requires much thought.

Well put William (?)

I personally don't see a need to further split any category into sub categories.

If the Watch does not meet the criteria of a known model then it is either an 'UNKNOWN' or 'CUSTOM' bulit. I hope that the majority of Us have common sense knowlege enough to distinguish between the 2.

The 'UNKNOWN' or "CUSTOM' (or whatever) categoried Watches have no need for an ID rating.

If a Watch has non Bulova parts:

ie - non Bulova Case, Movement or Dial it should not get in the database as the Watch is not a 'BULOVA'......and a marriage of Bulova Watch parts is a customization.

As Lisa said,

It doesn't matter what you call it unless you have a defined goal for the category, rules for entering it in that category, and most important, follow-up after a period of time on the outcome.

Only 3 categories are needed...

Known...Gets voted on by panel members. Must have all footprints of a Factory Made Bulova watch, and a confirmed ad or documentation to back it up with the exception of hands, crystal, strap/band unless defined in a ad.

Possible...Also get voted on by panel members. Has to have the same as the known, but not backed up by a ad, could be possibly named as a variant of a model, but will stay in this category until we have a ad to confirm it.

Other...Anything with some Bulova footprints, but not all, or one that has been modified or pieced together.

No Greg, now Your muddying the Water.

Case, Movement and Dial.

It's either a known identified Model, an unknown Model or a custom built Watch.

Since you guys think this is so simple and just a matter of "common sense" (as though there were such a thing in a group like this), then address this example and state whether it would be classified as the model it is currently stated to be or whether it would be put into a new category called, "Custom" and, therefore, lose it's model ID:  http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1959-military-issue-17a-3835

In that case, it has a modified lume job, and we already know that Fifth deems it to have lost it's model identification because of that change, while many others believed the modification did not negate the ID.

What about a watch with the wrong hands or a different dial from that which we've seen in the ads?  Some will inevitably argue "custom" while others will argue variant of the known model.

Without clear standards for each classification, you cannot expect to suddenly just agree on everything.  It hasn't been happening, and it is ridiculous, IMO, to think that simply adding yet another category will magically clear everything right up. 

I think the Frankenbully category is a very bad idea.  First, no one is going to want their watch listed there, and it will cause problems because of the "stigma" attached to it.  Conversely, watches may get listed there because the owner can't figure out what model it is, or something is different from the ad, but those facts don't necessarily result in a Franken.  William's recent change of his Sky King to a Frankenbully comes to mind.

More importantly, in my observation, far too many people do not pay enough attention to what they are looking at to realize that a watch listed in the database may be inauthentic.  Rather, because it is in the database at all, they will think it has merit.  Think about how many casual visitors to the site drop in only to see if their watch is listed, before they turn around and list it on eBay.  Do you think they will notice or care that the watch was classified as problematic, or even fake?  I don't think they will.   In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a Frankenbully category is added, within days watches will start showing up on eBay as the "Bulova Frankenbully".

This discussion has rapidly become a 'Soup Sandwich'.

IMHO.

Let's start small:

Can We all agree on a respectable Category Name for the non- conforming Bulovas' that admin will agree to (if at all) ?

.....damn, I liked 'CUSTOM'.

: )

a non-conforming Watch is just that.

Case and Movement Date variations, odd movement in a particular shell, custom Dials.

It's not that difficult.

The site 'rules' should remain.

Bulova Case, Bulova Movement and Bulova Dial.

IMO

Yup, but it applies here also Greg, the '64 Nova is still a '64 Nova,  plus it sounds coool.

'Custom Bulova'

Maybe someone will be creative enough to throw a set a Cragars on one?

I'm stuck on Bulova Case, Movement and Dial......anything else is just not a Bulova.

IMO

I'm trying Guys, honest.

Known models that are readily identifiable using current information Greg. - They have Names.

A prime example of a Custom Bulova would be a Custom Colored Dial.

The difference between an 'UNKNOWN' and a 'CUSTOM / NON CONFORMING' is going to be a fine line, a bridge to be crossed when reached.

IMO

If a Watch enters the database in an American Standard Case Dated 1925 with a matching Movement and a Dial which looks era correct which cannot be ID'd a safe bet is it will be an 'UNKNOWN'

If the same Watch shows up with a Quartz Movement and a Pink Dial it's obviously 'CUSTOM / NON CONFORMING'.

Is CUSTOMIZED the operative word , when the expression is used with regards to a car it means non standard parts have been added to an original vehicle. I am assuming that FRANKENBULLY means that one part of the watch is correct ie original case non Bulova movement or original movement non Bulova case.

terry

So it will be the case, movement and dial that decides it. Not to fussy about the hands.

Case, movt, dial, I agree, we can call them the big 3. 

The big 3 - nice!

I was thinking about the "Custom" tag,

It might open up a can of worms by encouraging a bunch of watches with weird colored dials, and watches like this...   http://www.mybulova.com/watches/2011-accutron-2540

All that would do is take up bandwidth...thoughts??

what would 'FRANKENBULLY' do?

We're overthinking this, it really isn't that difficult.....

A category is going to exist no matter, admin has already eluded to that and it is in place.

The Watch You show has no place in with identified models as the enhanced Dial has altered the Watch from original.  'CUSTOM' is the perfect tag.

IMO.

 I agree with Custom but my opinion  doesn't count.

This entire string of comments has been a real eye opener. I am happy to say I would have to side with First and Nova on the entire subject. I too am new to the site and a real novice in the Bulova collecting world, but, I have grown to rely on the advice and expert information I have received here even when it was stated flipantly at times. The catagory of "frankenbully" has no place on a site that is devoted to helping neophites such as myself to learn about Bulova watches the right way. I don't need or want to see something that is not  a true Bulova represented here since it just muddies the water. You would do well to stop the bickering and come to the conclusion that this is either a "real only" bulova suite or turn it into a mongrel that will not help people like me to see the real thing and be able to recognize it when I am out there shopping the boonies for the elusive holy grail. I have spent a lot of time learning how to research the ads and find the right one to match my watch and am still learning every day. The only thing the addition of a new catagory will do is to make it that much more difficult and time consuming to learn the  right way to find what is real and what is not. Seeing a non-conforming bulova regardless of what name you want to put on it will only confuse real watch collector and lover of the real thing Bulova Watches.

Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes here but had to say my peice.

JP

Would a ' frankenbully ' section or whatever you want to call it be an opportunity to put things right. A 'frankenbully' is generally not worth much financially but if I had for example  a lovely 1932 Bulova case and no movement and I spotted the right movement in a non Bulova case in the ' frankenbully ' section and was able to purchase this , then everyone would be happy.

terry

Good discussion.  Thanks admin for taking the initiative of putting "terms" to vote.  However, I feel that it may have been to early for me to make an "informed" vote. 

Not digressing or making things harder than they are, there are generally accepted guidelines for how these typed of issues are commonly addressed.

Roberts rules of Parliament

How do I feel these procedures applicable here- IMO before we put somethign to vote, there is discussion on the things which will appear on the ballot.  We have had that.  Too a degree.  However it is extremely useful to "hear from the minority" before a motion to put to vote is entertained.  Those folks (the minority) may have an argument which will bring more info to play,  or a different "point of view" and influence the choices which are listed on the ballot.   

One of the issues is the wording of this catagory.  If Frankenbully is considered rude or offensive, then we have the choice to not vote for it.  The term "non-conforming" can be construed as negative.  Simply by the perfix "non".  Custom was my first choice, however I voted for modified because "Custom" could be construed to be "better".  If it is important that this category be "natural sounding" then I would say Movified addresses that concerns better than anything negative or positive.     ...and without this discussion before a vote, we end up with a poll, similar to the poll which landed Frankenbully where it is today....and may choose "non-conforming" when we were not completely aware of it's possible implications.

I have customers who are very much into the Seiko Dive Watch customization, they refer to it as "modding", I think modded or A Mod  is a fairly inoffensive term.