the 'FRANKENBULLY' category.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture

Hey all,

I thought the Membership voted against (although close) a 'FRANKENBULLY' category to the site database?

 

This will be My final post as I feel the MyBulova site has taken a strong turn in the wrong direction.

Good luck everyone!

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 3:23pm

You still have to address what criteria will be used for "model identification" at each stage.  Are you really just trying to identify the model, or are you also rating overall authenticity and completeness in regard to that model in its original condition?  What elements constitute a model ID--just the case; case and movement; case, movement, and dial; case, movement, dial, and hands, etc?  At what point, if any, does a model become "custom", as Fifth suggests?  What constitutes a 1 Star Frankenbully?  We continue to lack sufficient, defined criteria necessary to support any rating system, and any attempt to do so, in the past, has been deemed overly technical and restrictive.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 13, 2012 - 4:15pm

Club 5000

In my opinion the criteria for a model identification would be correct case, dial and movement. If you wanted to stretch it include hands. In my mind they don't have to be original to the watch just correct to the watch. Example, Redial or replacing a 10ae MTV with a 10ae MTV. The criteria used is for the panel to decide. A difficult task. My thing is to separate the Fb's from the unknowns. Call them Frankenbully's or customs or not factory made Bulova's, doesn't really matter to me.

Ellierose
Posted February 13, 2012 - 3:29pm

this is silly after awhile..personally i don't think a watch with just a different dial is a franken watch..just like i don't think a watch with different hands is a franken watch...its just what it is a watch with different hands...2nd a franken watch is something that doesn't match at all ie a different brand case with  a bulova movement that is a franken..not a excellency with a different dial...you can identify it..its already a known watch..that is how i know it as a UU ..by me adding a different dial doesn't change that fact..so when a car is restored and u use a new piece of chrome then the chrome on that was on the car is it different car?does it change the name of the car? no? so i or you restore a dial and have it made black instead of the factory white, is that then a franken watch? its not factory...then all we have is a say a clipper with a non original dial..you would never be able to id that in the ad but it is till a clipper JUST WITH A DIFFERENT COLOR DIAL...AND THAT IS THE LAST TIME I AM GOING TO CHIME IN ON THIS...A EXCELLENCY WITH A NEW DIAL IS NOT A FRANKEN WATCH...what if a bullly owner need to replace his dial sent it to bulova and they didn't have anymore of the oringal dial to put on the watch? the use something newer..does that change the name? no...a  FRANKEN WATCH IS SOMETHING THAT HAS AFTERMARKET PARTS AND OR DIFFERENT COMPANY WATCH PARTS ON THE SAME WATCH..IE A BENRUS MOVEMENT IN A BULOVA CASE OR VISE VERSA...GOING BACK TO A RESTORED CAR IF YOU RESTORE EVERY PART AND NOT ONE ORIGNAL PART IS LEFT ITS STILL THE SAME CAR....

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 4:17pm

Am I misaprehending?  Is it really just about the NAME 'Frankenbully'? 

If we had a different category for watches altered from original, like "Modified", to cover the non-original redial situation that Ellierose posits, would that be acceptable?

How about:

  1. Original: Case, Dial, Hands, Movement all match an ad or catalog contemporary with the data codes.
  2. Modified: Some aspect known to be not original - painted dial, incorrect replacement dial or hands.
  3. "Marriage Watch": Clear recase, like watches with 'Bulova Movement' dials and non-Bulova cases wrapped around Bulova movements.

Watches that don't definitively fit in categories 2 or 3 are assumed to be Original, but still need to be vetted by the panel for '3-star' rating using the criteria already established.

Certainly, a 'Modified' watch can add to the general knowledge, if it's acknowledged as such. 

Just my ideas.  Feel free to ignore 'em!

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 4:41pm

That is a excellent idea Doug...

Only 1 category would need any rating at all, that being the "Original" for the purpose of correct model ID. You would still have to have a unknown category for those watches that still need to be ID'd

The other 2 would just be a beauty pageant and not need any rating at all.

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 4:46pm

Right, although as I say a 'Modified' still can add to the knowledge base.  Some of the IDs from the 1930s ads are made difficult by those oh-so-curved artists depictions, and seeing the actual case makes all the difference, even with a modified dial.

Ellierose
Posted February 13, 2012 - 4:42pm

maybe elgin is right..in watch collector terms a franken watch is what i described before..not just something with a different dial..and i am just not talking about my watch that was just an example...i am talking about any watch..

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:07pm

What about a watch were there is no corresponding ad?  You have no way to know if that watch is original, or modified, or a cobble.

What about a watch that matches the ad except for a different dial or band or whatever?  Would you then be making the assumption that any difference from the ad we happen to have on hand is a modification, rather than simply a version that we haven't yet seen in an ad?

My point is that, without a known complete set of adverts, you will be making a lot of assumptions that may be far from correct.  You may very often judge a watch as "modified" that was, in fact, a factory original.

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:23pm

I think we should assume that any watch not KNOWN to be either modified or cobbled together, where the case and movement date codes match, is original until proven otherwise.

If the watch doesn't exactly match an ad, but the movement and case match a known - think 1940s Senator variants - then I think it's a known, but tentative, and assumed original till proven otherwise.

If it doesn't look like anythign else but it's triple signed and the date codes match, then it's an Unknown, but assumed to be original till proven otherwise.

The way I look at it, 'Modified' and 'Marriage Watch' categories are for watches we KNOW are modified or cobbled together - red dials, known use of a nonoriginal dial etc. for Modified, obvious recase for a Marriage.

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:10pm

repeat after Me: "Now We are overthinking this"

Keep it simple - 'CUSTOM'

for the close calls there is the 'UNKNOWN' category.

Ellierose
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:13pm

this doesn't have to be that difficult to figure out..why not just call something what it is when it comes up...if its a known model then you know what to look for..if its something that no one has seen the discuss it and figure it out..

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:13pm

Whatever you want to call any category, its meaningless without consistent, objective standards.  Otherwise, all you'll end up in every instance with what you have now--just a bunch of opinions, offered by people who aren't even following the same rules, because the rules haven't been defined.  What you call "custom", someone else will argue is simply a variant.  (And they could be proved right. . .if/when the appropriate ad shows up).

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:28pm

Club 5000Panel Member

I like that terms Custom or Other or Marriage etc.... or at least what they are trying to accomplish as a category.   It's friendly- since that appears to be an important part of this discussion.  Things in Custom could remain there for folks to "learn from".  Watches in known or unknown would continue to be discussed by everyone, w/ the panel members listening to everyone's legitimate arguments/documentation etc... as they have been all along.  Then they "vote".    IMO coexistence is not a problem, and I believe we are doing it already.  If set up correctly, the site could meet the goal of ID'ing models w/ knowledgeable consensus and still allow any user to enter a bulova somewhere, without taking away any "credibility" from the soundness of the ID process or excluding any member or their "bulova" watch.  It seems like we are all close, it's just wording and mechanics of how to meet these goals if members feel both should be met.  It't obvious members feel they should be discussed.

I agree we need a set of workign definitions and clear rules with which to make dicissions. 

Something as simple to use as a dicotomous key, with only two answers at each level.  If A then ....1, if B then.....2.  With this set up correctly, we can address any concern or convolution by moving down to the next set of two choices.  It's the design of this key that requires much thought.

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:29pm

Well put William (?)

I personally don't see a need to further split any category into sub categories.

If the Watch does not meet the criteria of a known model then it is either an 'UNKNOWN' or 'CUSTOM' bulit. I hope that the majority of Us have common sense knowlege enough to distinguish between the 2.

The 'UNKNOWN' or "CUSTOM' (or whatever) categoried Watches have no need for an ID rating.

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:31pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Absolutely.  For those, a rating would not be necessary or appropriate.  It wouldn't make any sense.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:51pm

If a Watch has non Bulova parts:

ie - non Bulova Case, Movement or Dial it should not get in the database as the Watch is not a 'BULOVA'......and a marriage of Bulova Watch parts is a customization.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:05pm

As Lisa said,

It doesn't matter what you call it unless you have a defined goal for the category, rules for entering it in that category, and most important, follow-up after a period of time on the outcome.

Only 3 categories are needed...

Known...Gets voted on by panel members. Must have all footprints of a Factory Made Bulova watch, and a confirmed ad or documentation to back it up with the exception of hands, crystal, strap/band unless defined in a ad.

Possible...Also get voted on by panel members. Has to have the same as the known, but not backed up by a ad, could be possibly named as a variant of a model, but will stay in this category until we have a ad to confirm it.

Other...Anything with some Bulova footprints, but not all, or one that has been modified or pieced together.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:53pm

No Greg, now Your muddying the Water.

Case, Movement and Dial.

It's either a known identified Model, an unknown Model or a custom built Watch.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:02pm

You can call the categories whatever you want, but established guidelines for each category will have to be in place to determine what goes where...that is the point I was trying to make.

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 5:56pm

Since you guys think this is so simple and just a matter of "common sense" (as though there were such a thing in a group like this), then address this example and state whether it would be classified as the model it is currently stated to be or whether it would be put into a new category called, "Custom" and, therefore, lose it's model ID:  http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1959-military-issue-17a-3835

In that case, it has a modified lume job, and we already know that Fifth deems it to have lost it's model identification because of that change, while many others believed the modification did not negate the ID.

What about a watch with the wrong hands or a different dial from that which we've seen in the ads?  Some will inevitably argue "custom" while others will argue variant of the known model.

Without clear standards for each classification, you cannot expect to suddenly just agree on everything.  It hasn't been happening, and it is ridiculous, IMO, to think that simply adding yet another category will magically clear everything right up. 

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:14pm

Like you, I'm leary of 'common sense'.  If that worked, or even existed in this area we'd never have ID threads running to 4 or 5 pages! I like the idea of a decision tree.  You're right - adding categories without a good set of definitions we all follow doesn't help.

Regarding that watch, I would call it 'Original', 'A-17A', 3-stars.

'Original', because even though it was redialed, it was redialed to original spec, lume color nothwithstanding.  I'm leary of tinting new lume to make it look old.  We know the movement is the proper movement for the watch, because it says so right on the frakkin' case.

'Known', because the ID is stamped right on the case.

'3-stars', because the ID is stamped on the case, and the dial, though redone, is correct, the movement is correct, and the hands are correct.

I guess 'Original' is a loaded term in watch collecting, so how about 'Authentic' instead?

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:15pm

Thanks, Doug.  You just proved my point.  Without standards we will not agree on what is "Custom" or anything else.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:19pm

I agree with Doug,

It would be nice to see what the color of the lume was on a  A17A right out of the chute, remember, the lume tends to yellow with age.

bourg01
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:20pm

Panel Member

Well said Lisa. This is not so simple an issue to address. Everyones comments have had some merit on both sides of the fence, but I think now that Stephen's idea to ad "Frankenbully" as a learning tool for new collector's may not be such a bad idea. We've all bought one.....or more. If the definition of an FB can be utilized properly it just may very well save alot of new collectors from making the same mistakes we all have. I for one don't enjoy spending good money and getting a bogus watch. Mine all end up in the parts bin and I scrap the cases because I simply will not restore or sell one.

NOVA
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:34pm

I think the Frankenbully category is a very bad idea.  First, no one is going to want their watch listed there, and it will cause problems because of the "stigma" attached to it.  Conversely, watches may get listed there because the owner can't figure out what model it is, or something is different from the ad, but those facts don't necessarily result in a Franken.  William's recent change of his Sky King to a Frankenbully comes to mind.

More importantly, in my observation, far too many people do not pay enough attention to what they are looking at to realize that a watch listed in the database may be inauthentic.  Rather, because it is in the database at all, they will think it has merit.  Think about how many casual visitors to the site drop in only to see if their watch is listed, before they turn around and list it on eBay.  Do you think they will notice or care that the watch was classified as problematic, or even fake?  I don't think they will.   In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, if a Frankenbully category is added, within days watches will start showing up on eBay as the "Bulova Frankenbully".

 

 

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 6:55pm

I can't disagree with anything you've said, but perhaps now's the time to start working on the standards. 

We could start by listing all the possibilities, for example:

Authentic Bulovas:

  1. Matches ad/catalog in all particulars.  Triple signed, matching date codes. Dial may have been redone, but to original specs.
  2. Case identical to ad, but dial differs - think Senator variants we've seen but have no ad for. Triple signed, matching date codes.
  3. Case does not appear in any ad or catalog, but stamped Bulova. Triple signed, matching date codes. Crystal specs match named crystal.
  4. Case does not appear in any ad or catalog, but stamped Bulova. Triple signed, matching date codes. Crystal specs don't match any named crystal.

Modified Bulova:

  1. Case identical to ad, known incorrect dial replacement  or refinish. Triple signed, matching date codes.
  2. Case and dial correct, movement differs from spec or nonmatching date codes (>2 year gap?)

Marriage Watch:

  1. Bulova movement in non-Bulova case, or vice versa
  2. Bulova movement in Bulova case but not a match, e.g. really bad dial fit.

Once you know all the possibilities, you can define the categories.

bourg01
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:10pm

Panel Member

Very well said, and very well presented. This could very well be the foundation on which something can be built and we may all move forward. As I said before, it won't be simple, it won't be easy but I think it can work as Stephen has intended.

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 13, 2012 - 7:14pm

Club 5000Panel Member

yea I bet we see "Bulova Frankenbully" and/or "Custom Bulova" .  Perhaps a listing saying something like "c1940's Custom Bulova" .  While we should be mindfull of how information on this site can be used or misused, IMO we should not compromise the validity and quality of the ID'ing process because someone may misuse the info on the internet.  The watch is what it is, and some folks just want to make a buck.  Done properly, new buyers (potential Bulova collectors) may come to this site, read and learn for themselves, and make decisions based on sound site content. 

I doubt Custom or Frankenbully will replace those loved terms "art deco, rare, and "other than that, it's %100 original" but this site can help them know what those terms really mean. 

I'm so glad I changed the Sky King to a Frankenbully.  It was a "stupid change" based on how the new "rules" and Frankenbully don't work the way they are/were set up at the time.  It helped bring this discussion up right away. ....and the discussion is already leading to change for the better.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 7:26pm

Agreed Will,

Discussion is good, and its nice to see all members participating in the discussion...

Now lets see if we all can figure out what we can all agree on to accomplish the goals of this site...

ID Bulova watches....and the proper way (guidelines, rules, laws?) to go about that.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:17pm

This discussion has rapidly become a 'Soup Sandwich'.

IMHO.

Let's start small:

Can We all agree on a respectable Category Name for the non- conforming Bulovas' that admin will agree to (if at all) ?

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:24pm

Non Conforming Bulova...you said it right there Fifth!

Sound harmless...now lets define what it means...

Elgin Doug
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:24pm

'Non-Conforming" is a good term.  Beats 'Marriage Watch', for sure!

OTOH, I thought the discussion was finally getting somewhere!

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:32pm

.....damn, I liked 'CUSTOM'.

: )

a non-conforming Watch is just that.

Case and Movement Date variations, odd movement in a particular shell, custom Dials.

It's not that difficult.

The site 'rules' should remain.

Bulova Case, Bulova Movement and Bulova Dial.

IMO

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:32pm

Sound too much like car talk...My custom 1964 NOVA with the Flame paint job, Cragars, and the Blower sticking out of the hood....: D Right Darrin?

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:41pm

Yup, but it applies here also Greg, the '64 Nova is still a '64 Nova,  plus it sounds coool.

'Custom Bulova'

Maybe someone will be creative enough to throw a set a Cragars on one?

 

 

I'm stuck on Bulova Case, Movement and Dial......anything else is just not a Bulova.

IMO

I'm trying Guys, honest.

OldTicker
Posted February 13, 2012 - 8:56pm

Ok, but what about American Standard on the early models, or the marked but unmarked early 30's cases, and the Star cases that show up on the Military watches...would these be considered Non Conforming??/Custom?

I am taking notes here..

timerestoration's picture
timerestoration
Posted February 14, 2012 - 11:39am

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 13, 2012 - 9:25pm

Known models that are readily identifiable using current information Greg. - They have Names.

A prime example of a Custom Bulova would be a Custom Colored Dial.

The difference between an 'UNKNOWN' and a 'CUSTOM / NON CONFORMING' is going to be a fine line, a bridge to be crossed when reached.

IMO

If a Watch enters the database in an American Standard Case Dated 1925 with a matching Movement and a Dial which looks era correct which cannot be ID'd a safe bet is it will be an 'UNKNOWN'

If the same Watch shows up with a Quartz Movement and a Pink Dial it's obviously 'CUSTOM / NON CONFORMING'.

el tel
Posted February 14, 2012 - 12:06pm

Is CUSTOMIZED the operative word , when the expression is used with regards to a car it means non standard parts have been added to an original vehicle. I am assuming that FRANKENBULLY means that one part of the watch is correct ie original case non Bulova movement or original movement non Bulova case.

terry

Gerard
Posted February 14, 2012 - 12:24pm

So it will be the case, movement and dial that decides it. Not to fussy about the hands.

Reverend Rob's picture
Reverend Rob
Posted February 14, 2012 - 8:57pm

Panel Member

Case, movt, dial, I agree, we can call them the big 3. 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 14, 2012 - 9:29pm

The big 3 - nice!

OldTicker
Posted February 15, 2012 - 12:26am

I was thinking about the "Custom" tag,

It might open up a can of worms by encouraging a bunch of watches with weird colored dials, and watches like this...   http://www.mybulova.com/watches/2011-accutron-2540

All that would do is take up bandwidth...thoughts??

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 15, 2012 - 12:49am

what would 'FRANKENBULLY' do?

We're overthinking this, it really isn't that difficult.....

A category is going to exist no matter, admin has already eluded to that and it is in place.

The Watch You show has no place in with identified models as the enhanced Dial has altered the Watch from original.  'CUSTOM' is the perfect tag.

IMO.

Gerard
Posted February 15, 2012 - 12:57am

 I agree with Custom but my opinion  doesn't count.

mybulova_admin
Posted February 15, 2012 - 1:58am

Club 5000Panel Member

Thank you all got this amazing piece of discussion. I was happy to step out as I finally saw that members were getting my point. I honestly don't care what we called it. Frankenbully was the term we all used, so Frankenbully was added.

My point for adding the category has always been and always remain, separating out those watches that WE as a collection know will never be identified and therefore would never make it out of the 'Unknown' bucket.

This discussion started with a statement that the Frankenbully category was not needed. I am certain now after reading everyones input that we actually all agree that it is..... Just not called Frankenbully.

It's a 30 second job for me to change the name and I will now post a poll for everyone to cast their vote against all those options listed throughout this discussion.

This was never about a Frankenbully category, it was always about cleaning up the unknowns.

I wil also set it up that only actual ID models have a star rating.

JP
Posted February 15, 2012 - 1:59am

Panel Member

This entire string of comments has been a real eye opener. I am happy to say I would have to side with First and Nova on the entire subject. I too am new to the site and a real novice in the Bulova collecting world, but, I have grown to rely on the advice and expert information I have received here even when it was stated flipantly at times. The catagory of "frankenbully" has no place on a site that is devoted to helping neophites such as myself to learn about Bulova watches the right way. I don't need or want to see something that is not  a true Bulova represented here since it just muddies the water. You would do well to stop the bickering and come to the conclusion that this is either a "real only" bulova suite or turn it into a mongrel that will not help people like me to see the real thing and be able to recognize it when I am out there shopping the boonies for the elusive holy grail. I have spent a lot of time learning how to research the ads and find the right one to match my watch and am still learning every day. The only thing the addition of a new catagory will do is to make it that much more difficult and time consuming to learn the  right way to find what is real and what is not. Seeing a non-conforming bulova regardless of what name you want to put on it will only confuse real watch collector and lover of the real thing Bulova Watches.

Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes here but had to say my peice.

JP

el tel
Posted February 15, 2012 - 3:24am

Would a ' frankenbully ' section or whatever you want to call it be an opportunity to put things right. A 'frankenbully' is generally not worth much financially but if I had for example  a lovely 1932 Bulova case and no movement and I spotted the right movement in a non Bulova case in the ' frankenbully ' section and was able to purchase this , then everyone would be happy.

terry

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 15, 2012 - 7:54pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Good discussion.  Thanks admin for taking the initiative of putting "terms" to vote.  However, I feel that it may have been to early for me to make an "informed" vote. 

Not digressing or making things harder than they are, there are generally accepted guidelines for how these typed of issues are commonly addressed.

Roberts rules of Parliament

How do I feel these procedures applicable here- IMO before we put somethign to vote, there is discussion on the things which will appear on the ballot.  We have had that.  Too a degree.  However it is extremely useful to "hear from the minority" before a motion to put to vote is entertained.  Those folks (the minority) may have an argument which will bring more info to play,  or a different "point of view" and influence the choices which are listed on the ballot.   

One of the issues is the wording of this catagory.  If Frankenbully is considered rude or offensive, then we have the choice to not vote for it.  The term "non-conforming" can be construed as negative.  Simply by the perfix "non".  Custom was my first choice, however I voted for modified because "Custom" could be construed to be "better".  If it is important that this category be "natural sounding" then I would say Movified addresses that concerns better than anything negative or positive.     ...and without this discussion before a vote, we end up with a poll, similar to the poll which landed Frankenbully where it is today....and may choose "non-conforming" when we were not completely aware of it's possible implications.

Reverend Rob's picture
Reverend Rob
Posted February 15, 2012 - 8:13pm

Panel Member

I have customers who are very much into the Seiko Dive Watch customization, they refer to it as "modding", I think modded or A Mod  is a fairly inoffensive term.