I'm starting to question the usefulness of the srar ratings.

If i recall Steve implimented them on a trial basis. I'm starting to come to the opinion they're just to much reliant on personal opinion and conjecture rather than common sense and fact. i think we're starting to nitpick and lose site of the human aspect to collecting. Others have used it as tools for their little agendas outside of being constructive. I'm thinking about asking to scrap the thing entirely as it's just to much of a hinderence than a help in communication. Or maybe I'll drop out of that aspect and not pay attention to all the subjective arguing on bands, hands, crystals, and dials.

It's rapidly becoming not fun.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted April 22, 2012 - 1:16pm

Club 5000

You make some good point Plains. If a watch is not a 3 star watch because the band is not original, then something is wrong! The watch is what it is even if it has no band..... right?

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 1:18pm

Ditto Bob

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 1:18pm

I find since day one my watches have been nit picked so to speak. It has been rare that i got a star rating with no guff. Oh well i have learned not to let this distract me from my watches and the seeking out of new ones. Hell they are mine i like them and i will keep them until i sell them. This is another can of worms selling your watches. i have caught alot of flack about that. That i was only here to get information so i could sell them.

At first this was not the case but i do not see anything wrong in getting the right information before putting a watch up for sale, be it here or ebay or at a local swap meet. Oh well just a thought i will keep looking for my Bulovas and i will buy them and sell them at will as i see fit. Those of you who dont like it well like they said when i was a kid over 50 years ago egads soon to be 59. yuck  if you dont like it LUMP it lol

plainsmen
Posted April 22, 2012 - 1:25pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Being as I found about 70% of the watch ads/info on our site and I sell a fair number of watches, I obviously don't care if someone does a give and take with the site for sales info. Jim you had a rocky start but have come into your own on here.

 

I'm just starting to fail to see the validity in the rating system.

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 3:10pm

Thank's Plains 

JP
Posted April 22, 2012 - 3:18pm

Panel Member

While it may be a forum for nit picking and personal bias and false grandure, I don't think it should be done away with. It is the conversation it sparks that gets us looking deeper into the watch. It is healthy to disagree on some matters and just plain childish to fight over others. If you feel your watch is a particular watch and closley matches the ads, then, accept the critisims and move on. Like you have all said at one time or another, it's my watch and I like it and believe it to be what it is. To want to do away with the star system is to do away with the opportunity to open discusssions good or bad. We could become a very bland bunch if we didn't have some of the discussions we have and the last thing we would want is to become vanilla in our hobby.

Just my thoughts on  the subject and not meant to offend anyone.

John JP

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted April 22, 2012 - 3:52pm

Club 5000Panel Member

The star system seems to be working- like John and others point out.  The entire process needs to be both enjoyable and accurate for folks to want to participate, IMO.   If only a couple folks (me included) vote two stars based on what constitutes a confirmed ID to variant level, other voting members get to assign their rating and this all averages out.  A two and a half star 1960 President "X" lets folks know there are still some points of contention to confirmation, but all in all, it's most likely a 1960 President "X".  It fosters healthy discussion, which address these points of contention, or at least indicates they exist. 

I don't think any of us intend to offend. If we are polite, keep an open mind, and don't hold on to thread bear assumptions in light of other possibilities or facts (ads, crystal ID's, etc).  I'm impressed w/ Fifths continued "defense" of his opinions.  It should not matter if I agree with them or not- they are his opinions.  By being a panel member, the site asked him to assign stars based on his take on things, and back up these opinions when challenged.  He's indicated he will not compromise his opinion.  That's what the site asked him to do.  Even if he gives two stars when everyone else assigns three- it's only one vote, and he ain't gonna be a rubber stamp.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 22, 2012 - 4:33pm

I agree with William, the Star rating system works. 

 

Bob,

Respectfully I think You're missing the point, as many do.

A 'variant' is a particular Model of Watch with very specific details - if the details of the Watch do not match the advertised variant it is clamed to be then it cannot be that variant.

eg.

Variant 'A' is shown on a Leather strap.

Variant 'F' is shown on a Bracelet.

Both Watches are identical on all other points.

If a Member lists a Watch as variant 'F' yet it is mounted on a Leather strap their ID has to be incorrect.

If a Watch does not match the variant shown why are We trying to ID it as such?

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 4:31pm

But i dont belive that the watch get shunned for not having the band/bracelet or no band/bracelet at all. that is just plain ignorant when all eles matches. Trust me i  know all of us have these such watches that no longer have the original band. And we all know who is the big whiner when a watch isnt 100% like the day it was boxed. Face it these critters are far and few between. People who have these are holding onto them it is a rare occasion that you will run across a complete original Bulova, But they are out there. It has come to me that some on here want to be the best of the best and and cant be wrong about anything. We are all human and as such we all are NOT perfect.

I like the star rating system but when a watch gets shunned because of no band or the wrong band that is just plain silly. I really didnt know there was a right and wrong band for a watch, Personal taste is the watch owners i say. Hell ibet some of these were changed when they were new because the owner of his new Bulova didnt care for it and put a differnt one on.

Granted some know more than others but this is no badge to hold it over ones head and flaunt it now is it. I wish i had the knowledge that some here have trust me i would not come off like the Bulova god of walking information and be rude and pompus in doing so. I have learned to just ignore this petty stuff and look to gain information on my watches. The rest is the small sh-t i learned to not sweat the samll sh-t. My 2 cents.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 22, 2012 - 4:50pm

Jim,

When the bracelet or band is part of the variant identification it is important.  Why try to Name the variant if the Watch doesn't match the ad?  a model name would be sufficiant and would attain a 3 Star ID.

and, as an added side note.

 

Those Selling on eBay obviously don't care about what the panel members or membership in General feels in relation to an ID because the Watches show up on eBay ID'd incorrectly anyway. The ID process works, it doesn't work for those trying to Sell a Watch that's obviously not what it is claimed to be.

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 4:46pm

I will go along with the model name by all means. But still they are still the same watch as the add. I didnt think that the band made the watch i thought the movement case crown hands made the watch. After all that is the watch the band is just an add on. Even if it dont match the ad because the band is differnt but all eles is 100% why no 3 stars? Well dinner is ready wife hates me sitting here when food is on the table. Cheers :)

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 22, 2012 - 4:56pm

The Watch band or strap has been shown on numerous occasions to be an aspect of the 'variant', sometimes the only aspect to differentiate between variant 'A' and variant 'Z' of a particular Model.

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 5:23pm

I will take your word on that  i have seen it. I think its silly.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted April 22, 2012 - 6:27pm

Club 5000

Fifth I see your point on the variant issue, and agree.

Jim Townsend
Posted April 22, 2012 - 6:53pm

Bob are we a flip flopper? ( And i quote)

You make some good point Plains. If a watch is not a 3 star watch because the band is not original, then something is wrong! The watch is what it is even if it has no band..... right? 

mybulova_admin
Posted April 22, 2012 - 8:14pm

Club 5000Panel Member

Basically it comes down to this.

If there is a known variant on a watch model that is based on the type of band that it was released with (and we see alot of this in the vintage adverts) then that variant ID should only be used on thoses watches that still maintain that particular band.

If the watch no longer has the original band then at the very least it can be ID'd with the standard model name (less variant letter) or in some cases a totally different model name.

I don't think we need to get too hung up on this issue, but do agree with 5th that if we are going to select a model name with variant then the watch in question should match the points of of that variant, which in some cases is only the band type. Otherwise use the generic model name without the variant letters.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted April 22, 2012 - 9:03pm

Club 5000

I can see both points Jim.

el tel
Posted April 23, 2012 - 1:15am

My own feeling is that a watch should not be treated almost as a frankenbully just because it does not have the original strap. You might as well set up a website for Bulova watchstraps. To expect every 1928 watch to have the original leather strap is stretching things too far . If you want to be pedantic give 3 stars for a watch with a non original strap and 4 stars for one with the original strap. :-)

terry

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 23, 2012 - 4:47am

A Watch is not being treated as a Frankenbully on account of its strap Terry, please read the thread.

el tel
Posted April 23, 2012 - 5:13am

I was exaggerating a bit to make my point !

terry

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 23, 2012 - 6:05am

what point was that?

el tel
Posted April 23, 2012 - 10:41am

If for example a Ferrari motor vehicle does not have on its original tyres does that mean we question whether it is a Ferrari ?   thats my point .  :-)

terry

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted April 23, 2012 - 11:23am

Terry,

Having different tires doesn't mean it isn't a Ferrari but MAY differentiate it from another model. Without evidence to sway opinion one way or the other let's just call it a Ferrari and leave it at that.

(on an unrelated side note I think this is the last year for Massa at Ferrari)

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 23, 2012 - 11:41am

Some of Us get it and some of Us don't.

  

el tel
Posted April 23, 2012 - 11:52am

From my limited experience of collecting watches ( only 45 years ) , it is very rare that a leather strap is integral to the design of the watch but in the case of metal straps I accept that it is more likely they can be an integral part of the watch . My Rolex oyster perpetual would look completely out of place without its bi-coloured metal strap.  Fifth , like your graphics.

terry

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted April 23, 2012 - 12:43pm

terry,

On Bulova Watches the Strap type has been shown to determine the 'variant' (variation of) a particular Model. -  'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'E', 'F' ect, ect....

ie:

'AMERICAN CLIPPER' "B" is a 17 Jewel Six sided Cased Watch with a White Dial, Gilt numerals and Hands on a Leather strap.

'AMERICAN CLIPPER' "F" is the SAME WATCH on a matching Bracelet. - Therefore the Bracelet becomes the determining factor in which variant of 'AMERICAN CLIPPER' the Watch is.

To Name a 'variant' without the Watch matching what is shown in a Vintage ad to be the 'variant' is wrong.

In these instances where the Bracelet has been removed or added to a Watch originally on Leather naming the Watch by Model Name only is the best bet.

IMO

bobbee's picture
bobbee
Posted April 23, 2012 - 12:42pm

That's how I wind my automatic's Fifth!

JP
Posted April 23, 2012 - 12:47pm

Panel Member

Ferrari's are fast and expensive but not as cool as bulovas and hard to wear.

JP

el tel
Posted April 23, 2012 - 1:03pm

Fifth , this is where to some one like myself who is new to collecting Bulovas it is confusing. In the watch index there are two American clipper "B"'s dated 1936 and 1937 with quote " original metal straps " . They do not have 3* so does that mean they are on the wrong straps ? . Apologies for prolonging this discussion .

terry

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted April 23, 2012 - 9:00pm

Club 5000Panel Member

if so, would this "B" be an "F".  It's an old record and may have been overlooked for stars.http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1936-American-Clipper-B-14

and Draca's http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1937-american-clipper-b-4233 would be an "F"?

The stars for these two as "B" could be due to metal band vs leather strap, or it could be those two records were just overlooked. Note when a watch ID name is changed by owner, the star rating from the previous ID remain with the changed record.  At least the two metal bands look the same.

and GVP's B is on leather- but original leather?  Now what? (I'm kidding :)   http://www.mybulova.com/watches/1937-american-clipper-b-2135  (this record is also in old database format and could be updated)

 

 

GVP
Posted April 23, 2012 - 1:35pm

I seem to have lost my right to vote so "can't be arsed" with the rating system anyway.  If it matches the advert and the years match up, or someone has any other compelling evidence that's good enough for me.

OldTicker
Posted April 23, 2012 - 7:07pm

Probably happened when you changed your sign-in ID Gary, just e-mail Stephen and he will put you back on the panel.