I'd like to start this topic by inviting all who read this to post any information they may have about the release of the original 5000 Bulova Lone Eagle watch series in May 1927.
You can read my article "The Bulova Lone Eagle Story" for an insight into my theory about this amazing watch series.
Some points to consider:
- Did Bulova really sell 5000 watches within the 3 days after the Lindbergh landing?
- Where were they sold, America or France?
- What advertising did Bulova use back in 1927 to accomplish such an amazing feat?
- Why did the corner design change?
- Is the design of corner cut model that we see today really an art-deco symbol for an eagle?
I look forward to hearing your comments and thoughts.
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12 yearsMember for
14 yearsIt's not 'the' range. Its 'a' range of serial numbers that I have found so far. I'm sure there is more to be found.The good thing is that they are all with a 5000 range so far.
I'm compiling a grouping chart of every LE I have come across and recorded, including those in this site. Will post tomorrow when complete and will hopefully show you all what I have been talking about.
Member for
14 yearsIn reply to It's not 'the' range. Its 'a' by mybulova_admin
I've compiled a list of all Corner Cut, Tonneau and Stepped Chevron Lone Eagle models that are both in the myBulova database and my personal serial number database that I have been compiling over the last 6 years.
There are a few odd ball serial numbers mainly for the 1931/32 stepped chevron model. This I cannot explain. But I believe it certainly shows a good pattern of movement coverage. I've marked what I believe to be the original 5000 as 1926 as indicated on both the movement and case date codes. Were others have a differing date code between the movement and case, I have dated the watch according to the case.
NOTE: This is not an offical document nor a definitve listing of all Bulova Lone Eagles. It is only my personal observations on Lone Eagle Models pre 1933 that I have come across or is recorded here on myBulova.com. This table should only be used as a guide to help verify possible correct movements when cased in a Lone Eagle case.
No facts are stated here, just my observations.
Member for
12 yearsIn reply to I've compiled a list of all by mybulova_admin
I note that the above graph has only 14 models dating to 1926, of which only five are on this site as one of these is actually a LE dating to 1928,,whose movement serial number (MSN) falls in a range actually spanning only 2,476. The small amount of 1927 CCLE's have MSN's that span a range of just over 30,000, strangely coinciding with Mr. H.H.Taub's 48 hour post flight order number. Does that not make sense? EDIT:-It looks like you have ID'd the first 30,000, all of which correctly date to 1927, instead of 1926. This is supported by all evidence gathered to date, namely Bulova personnel data and statements dating to 1930 regarding the events, Bulova trademark records, and early Lone Eagle advertisement. Great work!
Member for
12 yearsIn reply to I've compiled a list of all by mybulova_admin
[quote=mybulova_admin]
I've compiled a list of all Corner Cut, Tonneau and Stepped Chevron Lone Eagle models that are both in the myBulova database and my personal serial number database that I have been compiling over the last 6 years.
There are a few odd ball serial numbers mainly for the 1931/32 stepped chevron model. This I cannot explain. But I believe it certainly shows a good pattern of movement coverage. I've marked what I believe to be the original 5000 as 1926 as indicated on both the movement and case date codes. Were others have a differing date code between the movement and case, I have dated the watch according to the case.
NOTE: This is not an offical document nor a definitve listing of all Bulova Lone Eagles. It is only my personal observations on Lone Eagle Models pre 1933 that I have come across or is recorded here on myBulova.com. This table should only be used as a guide to help verify possible correct movements when cased in a Lone Eagle case.
No facts are stated here, just my observations.
[/quote]
Two of the above 1926 examples do not count, as one is made up of a case back with this serial no. ending in "017", when the roman numerals inscribed are "III, VI, II" (3,6,2), and the second 1926 movement is contained in a case with a 1928 case s/n, making both "made up" watches.
Link to above watches:
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13 years 7 monthsThat's also the earliest article I've seen mentioning 5000. The Bulova website/timeline may have used this article, or who knows what, to put the first 5000 in it's timeline. Their website timeline certainly happened after 1977, and they don't reference where they got the figure.
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12 years
After a very long and in-depth search, this is the only article I could find concerning the $1,000
prize, other than the ones from 1977 and later.
As you can see, it makes no mention of the watch being presented to Lindbergh at the time of
the actual presentation of the cheque by Arde Bulova.
Date of article is June 12, 1927 and comes from the Mexia Daily News.
This does not mean he did not eventually receive a Presentation watch.
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12 years
We have established, via this article, that Bulova were in a little trouble over the lack of popularity of the Conqueror, and were possibly looking for another way of getting rid of them, or their movements.
Surely, as a way of recouping any losses, they would take any outlet they could?
http://www.mybulova.com/node/3732
The above linked thread may hold some answers to the question posed above.
Admin and Nova are having a sort of discussion in there, about the reason why so many 10AN movements were floating around in other (Fahys/BWCC co.) cases in the late 1920's, and there was some speculation that Bulova could have been in some financial trouble and looking for other outlets to get their product out there. Although the date on the subject watch movement in the thread is 1929, it still seems that Bulova were looking for a way to unload lots of 10AN movements in the late 1920's.
Strange, as the Lone Eagle was doing particularly well, using both the 9AT and the 10AN fifteen jewel.
Member for
14 yearsBobbee, I missed the part in the above article that 'establishes' that Bulova were in trouble financially. All I read is that there was a particular model that was a slow seller and Bulova managed to turn that around by associating it with Charles Lindbergh and his historic flight. Where does it state that Bulova were 'in a little trouble' and needing to 'recoup any losses'?
The 10AN would have been Bulova's bread and butter movement in the mid to late 1920s from what I have seen, as a high percentage of watches from this period were fitted with a 10AN movement. I fail to see any comparison to the above article with Bulova being in a position to 'unload' the 10AN movement to make a buck.
By this stage in the late 1920s they were one of the top selling watch manufactures in the country and from the figures shown in the above article ($7.3 million and $83,000pa) certainly didn't have any financial issues. These guys were spending money left right and center on R&D and marketing during this period.
It still doesn't answer the question why we see the Bulova 10AN movement cased in non Bulova cases, but I think that that subject is for another forum and not this one.
I do note however that in the sentence "When Lindbergh attempted his flight, he was given one too", the word "attempted" is used and not the word "made" which would tend to suggest that this statement implies that the watch was given pre flight and not post flight.
Member for
12 yearsIn reply to Bobbee, I missed the part in by mybulova_admin
Wrong end of the stick, admin.
In my opening statement I wrote:
"We have established, via this article, that Bulova were in a little trouble over the lack of popularity of the Conqueror, and were possibly looking for another way of getting rid of them, or their movements."
Nothing about them being in trouble financially, twisting my words a little. They could possibly have been in trouble financially, we do not know.
Where I did comment on Bulova being in trouble financially it was just that, a comment, and a comment on part of a post in the above linked thread by NOVA:
"P.S. Admin - All of the ones I've seen--including the orange and white dial jobs discussed in another thread--run 10ANs. You may be on to something there. A surplus of 10ANs in the late '20s? Bulova in financial trouble in the late '20s and/or looking for other ways to sell their products and get their name out there? It was still pretty early in the game for them at that point."
To which you replied: "Totally agree".
Must have changed your mind since then.
My whole point about my above post was that there could have been other factors leading to the 10AN movements being on the market in cases other than Bulova in the late 1920's, and that the initial failure of the Conqueror to sell could possibly have been a contributing factor to this, and as such I put forward a possibility, and made no claim to any of it being a fact.
It has been generally accepted, I should think, that CAL was given a Conqueror pre-flight, as were every pilot or flyer attempting the crossing of the Atlantic, and that this was simply a marketing ploy by Bulova. Stands to reason, they were good at their job and were covering all the bases.
A gift of a watch though, does not a contract make, and the earliest possible time for one to be signed would have been at the time of his meeting Arde Bulova on board the Memphis.
Which brings me to this. If Cal recieved the $1,000 prize aboard the Memphis when he arrived back in the US on June 11th 1927, how come he sent this telegram to Bulova the night before? Weird!
http://files.watchophilia.com/200017039-c1868c2816/June%2018%201927%20-%20Telegram.jpg
Member for
14 yearsIn reply to Wrong end of the stick, by bobbee
The newspaper article reported that on the 11th of June Col Charles Lindbergh received thre prize money during the 'official' ceremony when arriving back to the states. I don't see the 'weird' part about him sending a telegram the night before whilst still aboard the Memphis with time on his hands to prepare for the coming events that would follow in the days and weeks ahead.
Lets 'assume' that he was given the watch on the 10th and the 'offical' prize money on the 11th.....how it that 'weird'?
Member for
12 yearsIn reply to The newspaper article by mybulova_admin
There are lots of "weird" things going on, least of which is your assumption that CAL had time on his hands to prepare for events in the future being the reason for sending the telegram, and your assumption that he was given the watch on the 10th, and the prize money on the 11th.
The telegram thanks Bulova for the prize AND the watch. The newspaper article says only that Bulova presented CAL with the prize money. He cannot have been presented with a watch on the tenth, as he was still at sea.There is no mention anywhere of a "presentation watch", only of the watch given to him prior to the flight, as were all flyers attempting the crossing, which was the Conqueror, yet you perpetuate the myth of a June 11th presentation watch here:
http://www.mybulova.com/lone-eagles-bulova-watch
Where is your proof of this event? I cannot find any, anywhere. It is a myth.
Talking of perpetuating of myths, you make this statement below here: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mybulova.com%2FBulova-history&ei=6p-aUfvAG4KS0QX6m4GQDQ&usg=AFQjCNFx-uNdE_zrSGDslk09BV-hu8JB0Q&bvm=bv.46751780,d.d2k&cad=rja , quoting the Bulova website as your source, but I cannot find any mention of "the first 5,000", or indeed any sales figures for the first Lone Eagle at the Bulova site.
"In honor of Charles Lindbergh's transatlantic solo flight from New York to Paris, Bulova ships 5,000 Lone Eagle watches, packaged with pictures of Lindbergh. The supply, which is available the day after the landing, is sold out within three days. During the next few years Bulova sells nearly 50,000 of these commemorative watches." Pure myth, and a logistical impossibility.
You make a very similar statement here:- http://www.mybulova.com/bulova-lone-eagle-story, saying "The Bulova history books tell us that the company "sold" 5,000 of these watches within the first three days after the landing", but yet again, the official website makes no such claim.
The only place I have seen these claims are on other collectors sites and non-Bulova run watch sales sites, and the 1977 recollections of an old man.
Please note that I only make one assumption in this post, that of the Conqueror being the pre-flight gift watch.
Member for
14 yearsIn reply to There are lots of "weird" by bobbee
Bobbee I find your post highly offensive after spending the last 7 years of my life studying this particular watch model.
Those of us that have actually been around long enough to know what has been written by Bulova themselves know that it cannot be 'myth'. Just because 'you' cannot find a statement does not mean it was never made or existed.
Your above comment contradicts itself.
We have according to you a telegram from Lindbergh on the 10th of June whilst aboard the Memphis cruising up Chesapeake Bay (not at sea) which thanks Bulova for the watch and prize money and then an article noting the the prize money given to CAL the very next day. I would 'suggest' that both he and Blythe were busy preparing for the frenzy that lay ahead. I'm sure his telegram to Bulova was one of many messages of thanks made whilst aboard the Memphis.
None of us know for fact what actually happened as we were not there, so we try our best to put the pieces of info we do find together to make up one possible and plausible scenario. This is all this is, a possible and plausable scenario based on findings that many people, inluding youself have found.
As always the search for the truth continues.
Member for
14 yearsIn reply to There are lots of "weird" by bobbee
This is an exact copy of what Bulova used to have on their official website a few years back before they updated their time line with a new flash version. There are a number of references still on the web that use this old time line. It's not made up, it's what Bulova themselves published. Google 'Bulova time line'
http://www.mybulova.com/Bulova-history
Member for
12 years 11 monthsIn reply to This is an exact copy of what by mybulova_admin
admin,
Slightly off topic but the linked Bulova published timeline dated 1920 is incorrect as the building on which the Observatory was built did not break ground until 1928, completed 1930.
also,
There are no vintage advertisements touting the use of the Bulova Observatory before 1930.
580 Fifth Avenue New York is known today as the World Diamond Tower.
Pardon the interruption, carry on...
Member for
12 yearsIn reply to admin, Slightly off topic but by FifthAvenueRes…
[quote=FifthAvenueRestorations]
admin,
Slightly off topic but the linked Bulova published timeline dated 1920 is incorrect as the building on which the Observatory was built did not break ground until 1928, completed 1930.
also,
There are no vintage advertisements touting the use of the Bulova Observatory before 1930.
580 Fifth Avenue New York is known today as the World Diamond Tower.
Pardon the interruption, carry on...
[/quote]
Let's just see how many are definitely wrong.
1919
During World War I, the convenience of wristwatches (as opposed to pocket watches) is discovered. In 1919 Bulova introduces the first full line of men's jeweled wristwatches.
Ingersoll, Waltham, Elgin and Gruen had lines of men's watches way before this.
1920
Bulova Watch Company, Inc. moves to 580 Fifth Avenue and builds the Bulova Observatory on top of the building for the taking of sidereal time. This is the first Observatory ever built atop a skyscraper. The Observatory is under the direction of a mathematician whose readings are electrically recorded, instantaneously, on a chronograph hundreds of feet below the observatory, guiding the Bulova watchmakers in the Setting and Timing unit of the Company.
Two things wrong here. Bulova moved to 392 Fifth Ave. in June of 1921, and , of course, the Obseratory date out by ten years.
1923
The name Bulova Watch Company, Inc. is adopted. Bulova perfects a new concept in the watch industry with total standardization of parts. Every part of a Bulova watch is made with such precision (standardized to the ten thousandth part of an inch) that it is interchangeable with the same part in any other Bulova watch. This revolutionizes the servicing of watches.
Bulova had already standardised their movements by 1919, see the early Rubaiyat and Hudson/Lady Maxim ads for proof.
1924
Bulova unveils the first full line of ladies' watches, including diamond-accented pieces. In the same year, President Calvin Coolidge presents a Bulova watch to Stanley "Bucky" Harris player-manager of the World Series-winning Washington Senators. Bulova designs a new watch in honor of the occasion and names it the "President."
Another two wrong 'uns. They had full lines out under the Rubaiyat, Lady Maxim, and then their own named lines way before this, and the President was actually released in 1925, as "Bucky" Harris was presented with the Bulova watch in May 1925.
1926
Bulova produces the nation's first radio commercial, "At the tone, it's 8 P.M., B-U-L-O-V-A, Bulova watch time."
True.
1926
Ardé Bulova, Joseph’s son, offers a prize of $1,000 to the pilot who first succeeds in a nonstop flight across the Atlantic.
Unknown.
1927
In honor of Charles Lindbergh's transatlantic solo flight from New York to Paris, Bulova ships 5,000 Lone Eagle watches, packaged with pictures of Lindbergh. The supply, which is available the day after the landing, is sold out within three days. During the next few years Bulova sells nearly 50,000 of these commemorative watches. Also in 1927, Bulova Watch Company goes public on the American Stock Exchange, and Bulova Canada is established.
????
1928
Bulova introduces the world's first clock radio.
Wrong. The article below dates to March 1926.
1929
Bulova engineers and patents a new principle in the construction of automobile clocks.
1931
Bulova begins manufacturing the first electric clocks. The collection includes wall and mantel clocks, and clocks for use in stores, windows, office buildings, train stations and airports. Also, Bulova becomes the first watch manufacturer to spend more than $1 million a year on advertising. Throughout the Depression years, Bulova supports retailers by offering Bulova watches to buyers on time-payment plans.
Wrong. The Warren Telechron Co. was selling electric clocks as early as 1912.
1935
Joseph Bulova, founder of Bulova Watch Company, dies.
This is the biggest of all, probably.
Joseph died in November 1936!
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=148
http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVi7vTJRTQQcAYUF3Bwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByM…-
Too much can be read into these corporate "Timelines".
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14 yearsIn reply to Excellent new adverts and by mybulova_admin
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14 yearsHere is a brief mention of the LE in an article dated April 10, 1983 form "The News and Courier"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S2hJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sQoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=…
Here is possibly the earliest mention we have seen so far of the magic 5000 and them selling out in three days statement from the Boca Raton News - Mar 29, 1979
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eAtUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qYwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=…
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14 years
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14 yearsWhat's the chances of Bulova deciding to use a previously slow selling model, the "Conqueror" to rebadge as the Lone Eagle in advertisments as early as June 17 1927, whilst President Coolidge refers to Lindbergh as "a conqueror of the air" only one day earlier upon his return to the US.
Reading Eagle - Jun 12, 1927
Member for
14 yearsHere is a great advert from June 9, 1927 showing how Bulova and jewelers were also cashing in on the popularity of the second trans-atlantic flight (New York - Berlin).
The ad says that the flighers were said to be using Bulova watches, may these be the same Conqueror watches that Bulova gave to a bunch of pilots as mentioned previously.
Also note the model that is pictured....that same President style model that we have previously discussed.
These seems to be all pieces of the puzzle.....and I think we are still missing a few vital pieces that will give us a more precise picture of how Bulova organised, marketed and sold the Lone Eagle watches during this period of 1927.
Member for
14 yearsAnd another.
The Milwaukee Sentinel - Jun 10, 1927
Whilst it does not detail which watch was worn during the flight, we certainly have evidence that these guys were more than likely given a Conqueror watch.
Was this Bulova's way of preparing the Conqueror for the big league as the rebadged "Lone Eagle"?
Member for
14 yearsIt would seem that the Conqueror model got a lot of print time in newspapers just prior to Lindbergh's return....coincidence, not with Bulova. I think that this ia another piece of the puzzle.
The Milwaukee Sentinel - Jun 12, 1927 and another jeweler.
This is showing us that a number of jewelers were pushing the Conqueror model and its association with the Chamberlin flight (June 6, 1927). One day later (June 13, 1927) we have the first advertised mention (so far) of the Lone Eagle and its association with Lindbergh. This is a great connection.
Member for
11 years 10 monthsPersonally, I don't find the Conqueror any less appealing than the other watches Bulova was selling, in fact, it is a good looking watch. I don't think it was a bad seller, or that they were having difficulty marketing them. They were certainly expensive:
$50 in 1927 is
$670 in 2013 dollars.
Excellent ad finds, Stephen. Sheds a lot of light on the situation.
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14 years
Member for
14 yearsWhat I find interesting.....
The day Chamberlin and Levine touch down on Germany soil there are mulitple newspaper adverts advertising Bulova's connection to the flight and the pilots that wore a Bulova watch. (proof enough)
However we see no such case with the more historic and popular Lindbergh flight, why?
Perhaps, Bulova could not prove that Charles wore the watch he was given, during the flight. The first telegraph of thanks we have evidence of (dated 10 June 1927) is some 18 days after the flight, thanking Bulova for the watch but not actually stating he wore it during the flight as a timekeeper or navigational aid.
Even after the telegram, we stil really don't see Bulova going all out to advertise the fact the Lindbergh wore the watch during his historic flight.
Was there something at play stopping Bulova from doing this or could it simply be that Bulova were either not sure and therefore couldn't advertise as such, OR did they in fact know that he didn't wear the watch given to him during the flight, and as such simply stated 'as presented to....
Member for
14 yearsI've updated a few previous posts as it's just dawned on me after re-reading the timeline that it was the 17th of June that we see the first advert for the LE (not the 13th).
My belief is now that Bulova held off advertising the rebadge Conqueror as the "Lone Eagle" until such time as they had secured the naming rights for the 'Lone Eagle' watch, which as we see happened on the 17th of June 1927 (http://trade.mar.cx/US71250675), the same day we see the first advert.
I've been looking to see if I can find any adverts pre the 17th, but I now feel there won't be. It's now my opinion that Bulova didn't jump on the opportunity straight after the flight to market the LE (they already had the pre-ordered sales covered), but instead held off until such time that they knew the name and its use in relation to watches would be protected.
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12 yearsIn reply to Evidence to show that some by mybulova_admin
[quote=mybulova_admin]
Evidence to show that some jewelers were still selling Conqueror stock post June 17.
This would suggest that these Conqueror watches didn't come with the special box or letter and therefore could not be sold as the new "Lone Eagle".
Reading Eagle June 22 1927.[/quote]
I have seen other adverts post- June 16th, 1927 for the Conqueror.
This means that without the original box and receipt it is just about impossible to know if you have a Lone Eagle or a Conqueror.
Such is the mystery surrounding these two models at this time, enigmatic to say the least!
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14 yearsFINALLY an article that states that Bulova gave Lindbergh the $1000 AND a watch on his return to the US on the 11th June 1927. This from The Miami News June 10 1927.
Ok well it doesn't state that it was Bulova....but it was :-)
What is interesting in this article is that is says the watch he was given was the same in design as the one given to Bryd and Chamberlin.....so perhaps it was the President model.
We have adverts above that reference the President and Conqueror models and we know that 'a' watch gifted to Lindbergh was also a President model.(http://www.mybulova.com/lone-eagles-bulova-watch)
So the question now is what model did Bulova give to all the pilots as stated by Mr Taub. The President or the Conqueror?
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12 yearsIn reply to FINALLY an article that by mybulova_admin
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The full, unadulterated April 1930 after-dinner speech, as given by H.H. Taub concerning
advertising, and
in particular the Lone Eagle.
He talks of how the Lone Eagle was first advertised by putting cards in jewelers shop windows,
and of how they did not expect Lindy to make the flight, like so many of the other attemptees.
It also mentions that 30,000 were ordered within 48 hours, giving Bulova the incentive to order the watches, boxes, and the parchment letters of approval made. These were then delivered to the jewelers, who then advertised them for sale. This is why so few ads before July 1927 are seen, as they could not advertise for sale what they did not have.
Member for
12 yearsHere is proof that CAL did have a clock on the instrument board in the SoSL when flying across the Atlantic.
Date of publication June 1927, Paris, France.
Photo's include one of the instrument board and list of instruments, plus a closeup, the list includes a "Chronometre".
Here is one of the SoSL with CAL.
One showing the results of "souvenir hunters".
This one shows the SoSL landing at LeBourget Airfield, then in a hanger being inspected post-flight, and being rebuilt in France, before going home.
All photos and more can also be found here, pages 161 onwards.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6568023j.r=%22charles+lindbergh%22.langEN
