the 'FRANKENBULLY' category.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture

Hey all,

I thought the Membership voted against (although close) a 'FRANKENBULLY' category to the site database?

 

This will be My final post as I feel the MyBulova site has taken a strong turn in the wrong direction.

Good luck everyone!

OldTicker
Posted February 15, 2012 - 8:47pm

Are we getting to P.C. here??

I see nothing offensive about this...

Definition of NONCONFORM intransitive verb : to fail to conform — non·con·form·ernoun                   A frankenbully would not conform to what was produced by Bulova = Non-conforming.             Dear member, Sorry, your watch cannot be added to the known or unknown database because it has a non-conforming (dial, case, movement) and would serve no purpose in those categories anyway, so to allow you to still post your watch, we have designated a special category just for you...The exclusive Non-Conforming category. Please feel free to enter it for others to see, so that in the future, they will be more enlightened  what not to buy on eBay...
William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:10pm

Club 5000Panel Member

I agree 100% OT.  the watch is what it is.  I didn't mind Frankenbully, but wanted to make sure most folks were "happy" with what ever it was called. 

I just didn't want  a vote or poll which may give us "results" which other members may not be happy with and wanted to make sure all points were considered. 

Maybe I'm playing devils advocate again. The PC thing.   but I wanted to throw out the possible connotation others may perceive.  Personally, I know what I'm calling it.  But that may not be what the site wants to call it.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:23pm

I feel common ground is being reached but 'non-conforming' is still a slightly offensive description to the Watch owner.

'CUSTOM' is both descriptive and forgiving.

Any Watch owner would much rather posess a 'CUSTOM'ized Bulova than a 'NON-CONFORMING' Bulova.

IMO

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 16, 2012 - 12:19am

Club 5000Panel Member

I would vote for custom

DarHin's picture
DarHin
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:31pm

Non-Conforming sounds as if the watch needs to go to a "Re-Education Camp"

I didn't think of it before but I kinda like "Hybrid"

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:36pm

Club 5000

Ya know what guys I'm tired of everything having to be politically correct! I voted for nonconforming but now I wish I had voted for frankenbully. I say call it what it is. If someone gets their feelings hurt so be it. I'd rather hear the truth from informed collectors than have my feeling spared.

 

Elgin Doug
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:52pm

Gee, as someone who grew up in the 60s and 70s Liberal in a Conservative area, 'Non-Conforming' sounds like a good thing!  ;-)

BTW, what exactly are the parameters of the proposed category? 

Elgin Doug
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:57pm

BTW, "Modified" and "Marriage" as I proposed them described two very different kinds of watch.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 15, 2012 - 9:58pm

Club 5000

I'm not saying it's a bad thing Doug, but I doubt any collector outside of this site would know what a non conforming watch is. Call it a Frankenwatch or Frankenbully and they would know instantly!

Elgin Doug
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:04pm

Bob, the names don't bother me.  It's the lack of precision in defining the categories.  I'm now not certain what I voted for.

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:07pm

Club 5000

Doug you made me laugh:) As I understand it the case,dial and movement must be correct to the model.

OldTicker
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:13pm

Round 2 has started to adress that subject Bob...Just wait till we get into the thread about if the pictures should match the ad 100%! : D

Elgin Doug
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:12pm

You've now defined one category - and not the one we're primarily discussing!

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:19pm

Club 5000

Ok I'll be quite now. Think I'll go watch the hockey game. Now I don't even know what were discussing. I grew up in the 60's too so what ever you guy want to do is cool with me. POWER TO THE PEOPLE :)

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 15, 2012 - 10:27pm

how many times can We vote?

: )

Bob Bruno's picture
Bob Bruno
Posted February 15, 2012 - 11:21pm

Club 5000

In Chicago we say vote early and vote often!  :)

OldTicker
Posted February 15, 2012 - 11:26pm

That explains a  lot Bob! : O

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 16, 2012 - 12:28am

Club 5000Panel Member

I came across a recent post by a new member - his first.  He listed his watch in the database.  These types of posts are not uncommon from new site members.  I see them often.  I know many of us try to help in what ever way we can.   The post simply started out:

     "Well my father passed away.  I wanted to restore to the original state, same band, fix the movement and get it up and running again.  Any one who can help me with more information........"

 

While it may not matter to me what we call the new category, it may make a difference to him.

 

OldTicker
Posted February 16, 2012 - 1:04am

Is this poll only open to "panel members"?...I thought it was open to any member?...and to ask a question or post anything, don't you have to be a member?

I try to help whenever I can, yes some questions go unanswered, but the stigma here is that only panel members should answer questions...not true...I believe Gerald ID'd 2  watches yesterday...and spot on for these types of questions, and I have seen others do the same...

I guess I don't understand what your getting at Will?  was his watch a known or unknown Bulova?

William Smith's picture
William Smith
Posted February 16, 2012 - 1:57am

Club 5000Panel Member

His watch is a bulova.  His entry was spot on, and I noticed you and Gerald both replied appropriately.  I was just saying the name of the category doesn't matter to me because I know what it's intended function will be, but it may matter to others. To new members or those who are not familiar with intended function but relate more to what they first see when they come to the site.   

I hope the poll is open to all members.  I also hope new or non-panel members don't feel like there is the stigma you mention.  ...but like you, I believe the stigma may exist.  And IMO that is not the sites intention.  I don't believe any members- new or old, panel or non-panel members- want the site to come across that way.  What ever we can do to encourage all member participation is a good thing.  IMO each member is equal here.  We all learn together.  All constructive input helps.  Fortunately for us all, there are some very experienced members - long time bulova collectors and the likes- on whom we can rely for accurate and unbiased opinion and help.  Some of them happen to be panel members.  While I listen to all members, I listen very carefully when these elder statesmen speak, and we are lucky to have their level of dedication and skill.   I agree with you that all members make great contributions, and we should foster that type of participation.

I've turned the thread to soup again.... :(

mybulova_admin
Posted February 16, 2012 - 3:44am

Club 5000Panel Member

Just to confirm that only site members can cast a vote.

I would hope that those who may have found a way to vote more than once respect what we are trying to do here and only vote once.

The vote is open for a week and just to advise if the end result doesn't work after a while the name can always be changed simply and easily.

mybulova_admin
Posted February 16, 2012 - 3:50am

Club 5000Panel Member

I have also now made it so votes can be changed once cast.

Elgin Doug
Posted February 16, 2012 - 12:35pm

I want to thank Stephen for his constant efforts to make this place what a bunch of cantankerous, opinionated collectors want it to be.  It must be driving him nuts, but he keeps at it.  Kudos!!

On WTF right now there's an exodus of the most knowledgeable vintage collectors over the arbitrary and rigid behavior of the site owner.  His site, his right, of course, but he's losing the very things that got people to go there in the first place.  All the Hamilton resources - the ads, the decades of catalogs, the picture database - all gone.

That's the difference between running a site for profit, and running a site for collectors.

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 16, 2012 - 12:48pm

I wouldn't want to be Stephen, I'd drive Me nuts.

...hats off to Ya mate!

JCEagle's picture
JCEagle
Posted February 16, 2012 - 2:16pm

Fifth your remarks are telling.  Admin needs help from his most active site members, This discussion string and resulting poll has been more about; "who's going to win the naming rights for the category under discussion,"  than " what characteristic definition is needed for the site to fulfill its purpose."   Admin posted a set of criteria for the category as follows:

watches that meet one of the following criteria:

  • Bulova case, non-Bulova movement
  • Bulova case, non-Bulova dial
  • Bulova dial, Bulova movement, non-Bulova case
  • Bulova dial, non-Bulova movement, non-Bulova case
  • Bulova case from one model, Bulova movement and/or dial from another model * 

* Certain exceptions may apply.

In general a watch comprising of parts that are non-original to a 'known' Bulova model. Watches falling into this category can now be ID'd as such on this site.

So 5th, tell me; What are the characteristics of a "known" Bulova model?

What is non-Bulova? What defines original What is non-original? What is the status of a watch that has been repaired, as indicated by jewelers marks, with respect to original?  What role does condition play in determining if a watch is a "known" model.   The site is not about $values by definition, yet we all know a watch with 3 stars is going to be worth more than one with none! What about (a can of worms) bands? 

These may seem like trivial questions to answer to you, but I find no answer to these questions from reading the Forum discussion string.   There are hints and preferences, but the lack of consistent  documentation on Bulova models leads me to believe you EXPERTS  need to sit down and provide Admin some written discriptions concerning your experience in collecting Bulovas.  For example document your experience with certain numeral types used on Excellancy watches as that model has changed over the years. For those who's expertise is crystal fit, compile a list of dimensions etc. for the "known" models so it can be posted. Pictures and ads are good, but those of you with extensive collections and time spent in collecting, repairing selling etc. can benifit the site by working with Admin rather than expecting im to meet your needs. 

As a retired data base administrator (just one many things in my old job discription) my advise to Amin is to put you Experts to work off line (individuall and collectively) to provide him the information the site needs to be effective. 

You may not get paid but you would be more than passive USERS of his site. If Admin needs me to do something he only has to ask.

JCEagle

 

   

 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 16, 2012 - 3:40pm

JCEagle.

The end result of this thread has been compromise, not who is going to win. If I were to have it My way an additional category would not exist and to be honest could care less what it's called - My suggestions were/are  merely less offensive to the unknowing Bulova Owner than others.

Traits of a known Bulova Model are just that a Model readily identifiable by ads in the Database.

Traits of an unknown Bulova Model are signed Case, Movement and Dial which all appear era correct based on the styling of the time.

Any Watch missing one or more of the above would be deemed non-Bulova and not permitted to enter the database. IMO

A Non-conforming Custom Bulova Watch would be any Modified Hybrid Cobbled together using only Bulova parts. - The Frankenbully.

 

On occaision the line between an Unknown and a Frankenbully will be a fine one, as a group let's try not to overthink the subject as it will work its way through eventually.

 

JCEagle's picture
JCEagle
Posted February 16, 2012 - 5:38pm

Once again, Admin posted the following as the set of criteria for the category.

watches that meet one of the following criteria:

  • Bulova case, non-Bulova movement
  • Bulova case, non-Bulova dial
  • Bulova dial, Bulova movement, non-Bulova case
  • Bulova dial, non-Bulova movement, non-Bulova case
  • Bulova case from one model, Bulova movement and/or dial from another model * 

* Certain exceptions may apply.

In general a watch comprising of parts that are non-original to a 'known' Bulova model. Watches falling into this category can now be ID'd as such on this site.

Without trying to over think, it would be helpful to know the answer to the following questions about myBulova watches.

Do the ads in the Database show all of the Bulova models listed on the database pick list?

 Is the database  pick list complete?

 Do all Bulova watches have model names/numbers as well as serial numbers,dates?

 Do all Bulova watches have a signed Case, Movement and Dial?

Era correct based on the styling of the time is in the eye of the beholder. Could someone put together a list of  traits/characteristics, etc., that are era specific?

How would a watch put together using only signed Bulova parts be distinguished from one that should be rejected?

Could someone put together a list of the points/traits/characteristics that distinguish a specific model?

JCEagle 

FifthAvenueRestorations's picture
FifthAvenueRest...
Posted February 16, 2012 - 5:51pm

Then I disagree with admins' criteria, but this isn't My website:

1. No.

2. No.

3. Yes.

4. Yes, IMO.

5. Would depend on the era.

6. A reject would have a non Bulova Movement or Case, but that goes against what admin has laid out.

7. Too broad of a question - models are identified by ads etc.

JCEagle's picture
JCEagle
Posted February 17, 2012 - 12:11am

Thank you Fifth, apologies for not knowing how to frame my questions initially. 

 

bourg01
Posted February 16, 2012 - 6:19pm

Panel Member

Folks, Almost the majority of unknown FB's have been re-cased and perhaps re-dialed for the aftermarket case. Perhaps the catagory should be " Re-Cased" or "Re-Cased- Re-Dialed".

Personally, I don't care what we call it as long as this discussion yeilds clear quidelines for entering a watch to the DB before it is entered.

Stephen is trying to expand the knowledge database which can be shared by all users so they don't have to make the same mistakes we all have made. It will be a valuable tool for all to use.

I am also of the opinion that Stephen also add a disclaimer stating that the voting is based upon evidence provided and the opinions of the voting Panel members  whether right or wrong. A perfect example is my A17A Military currently rated at 2.5 stars. Why, because some member/members didn't like the dial restoreation. It's ID cannot be denied as it's clearly stamped on the watch, but it has been here....... due to opinions of others.

Ellierose
Posted February 16, 2012 - 6:33pm

this is still going on? anyway shawn, i don't think that your watch should get only 2.5 stars becasue people didn't like the redial....its still what it is the color of the dial doesn't change that...i think that should go for any watch..ie if i had some lone eagle with a red dial,which i wouldn't do..but if i did it would still be a lone eagle..also its hard to truly match a dial to an original...

bourg01
Posted February 16, 2012 - 7:37pm

Panel Member

Actually it was the color of the luminous that was disapproved of. All said It's still an A17A so I don't care what the rating on this site is. I know what I have and I disagree with the vote, end of story, but it clearly shows the votes are opinion based and that's a serious flaw in the process.

The real point is that a star rating does not make or break an ID. It's merely  reference point based on opinions of others. That's where the flaw lies and I doubt,  that can ever be defined or corrected. So, I can respect the opinions of others, except the vote , and walk away knowing that regardless of the outcome here, I still have a genuine watch even if it's not 100% perfect to the purist.